November 2012 - Babies are getting busy, busy, busy

[StuntNun]

Previous thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/postnatal_clubs/1858262-November-2012-In-which-the-babies-start-to-reach-their-first-birthdays

I have a theory. I think bf and ff are exactly the same amount of work. But, with bf it's all in the first 4-6 weeks whereas ff it's spread over the entire year.

Like cloth nappies are expensive to start but it's a one-off outlay, while disposables are x amount per week.

PP that's my pet theory too! Once past the 6 week growth spurt it's (in most cases) much easier to BF. But that's providing you did the leg boob work early days and fed on demand constantly to establish supply otherwise its a struggle for months with baby trying to play catch up and up your supply and it usually ends with baby rejecting the breast. Hence pressure to go out and about in the first few weeks isn't likely to lead to long term BF success and I hate the pressure on women not to let a baby 'interfere' with your life - it bloody should! (and probably why many cultures sensibly have a period where new Mums are housebound - I bet traditionally it was to establish feeding).

I think another one of the biggest killers of BF is having HCP or family who FF and who push BF Mums into 4 hour routines early days and view anything else as baby being unreasonably demanding or spolit. 4 hours is far too long for a BF baby to go between feeds and it'll shrink your milk supply. Oh and the fact that a newborn baby will suckle a bottle after a boob - it doesn't mean they need a top up - just they are programmed to suckle. And if family experience is FF (and the often bigger baby that results) there's often a view that BF babies are small and therefore must be starving. Yet more anxiety added to the mix!

I think THE very very hardest way to feed a baby is to bottle feed expressed BM like Pikz did. Total legend. All of the difficult bits of both ways of feeding. I couldn't have managed that. We topped up with bottles of BM for a month to flush the jaundice and it killed me.

Evening everyone! Bitch of a day here, but he's in bed now and fingers crossed we stay that way!

eliza I will make sure I keep hold of the good days to get me through the more difficult ones and when I'm doubting myself.

sophia that zumba sounds brilliant!

yw sounds like a very brill dad there!

Glad the parcel was gratefully received MM :) My dp gets sent to work with sarnies, the poor fucker

I have nothing to add to the formula talk, so I won't. BF, GT I think you've been doing amazingly well, I think everyone who manages it is just awesome, but it makes me sad that I felt I couldn't do it. If I have another I'd like more support and I'd like to think I believe in myself a little more. sophia E screamed every time we tried too and wouldn't latch, I expressed for just over a week and then went to formula. I think my dp would've given me better support had he known what to do for me. He saw me crying and exhausted and thought that stopping expressing was what I needed. TBH I think it was, for me and e, but I would like to have a better bf experience if there's a next time, if any of that makes sense.

eek sorry to hear of infected bits gt but woohoo for the weight gain :D

congrats donna how lovely :D

sounds like you're having a lovely time pass :)

yw just refreshed and saw your post - I had that here, was expected to get E into a 4 hourly routine very quickly and get him to drink the EBM in one go, not in fits and starts.

Anyone got any weekend plans?

Any sign of apple? Hope you're ok?

Thanks for the advice with regards to giving painkillers each night. I'm certain it's a molar coming through. It doesn't stop her from self settling at the start of the night, nut she wakes about 2ish and properly squeals in pain and a dose of Calprofen seems to be doing wonders for her.

Right, DP is off out so I'm settling down to a night of trashy tv, just for me ignoring all the packing I should be doing

DP is out tonight too miss. He never goes out.

I don't know what to do with myself!

So far I have treated myself to some oven chips .

Maybe an early night?!

I took O out in the Kozy Mei Tai I have on loan (I think that is what it is!). I much preferred it over the woven wrap, so I am going to sell that to fund my next expensive sling purchase. I really need to get a nice backpack though as carrying a bag on my shoulder is a PITA. I think a backpack will be too as I will be in and out of it, but easier on my shoulders at least. However both purchases will have to wait til the end of the month, as funds are now very stretched due to birthdays/christmas purchases! Damn you bargain thread!0

I did get O's first shoes today. I realised when we got home that they have flashing lights . I don't want flashing lights shoes! But they had rockets on, and I thought they were cute. And they fit. So £32 later... I'm not paying that again though. Next time it's eBay! I just wanted his first pair to be perfect :) I'll sell them on after!

He didn't like them in the shop, and refused to walk! He was fine once I got him home and put them on him round the house. Might try outdoor walking tomorrow!

Kyz O was a grumpy sod this evening. He wakes up from naps in totally different moods than which he went to sleep in. It's like 3 different moods a day sometimes?! Frickin' weird!

Dp is making me a hot chocolate

Yyyyy re pumping exclusively being the hardest. Closely followed by exclusion diets. And that's why i will always support formula - cutting an entire food group is a nightmare and could potentially put the mum at risk, in which case science has provided an excellent alternative. But, yet again, hcp's are dismissing parents' concerns.

I wish I had bf support. I didn't manage one single day without using formula and he was exclusively ff by the time he was 3 days old.

GT with regards to napping routines, just go with whatever A wants for now. Too early to be thinking about a routine for him yet - IMO.

So tired today. Fell asleep on the sofa last night so didn't sleep well.

No weekend plans here. O is with his dad until Sun afternoon so I will probably just hibernate on the sofa all weekend.

Luc 1 Mummy 0

Chasing anywhere nice nearby to go for an autumnal stroll? Much nicer to crash on the sofa with cold red cheeks after a walk in the chilly sunshine xx

Kyz getting them to latch is easier said than done isn't it . Jonas wouldn't for four days after birth due to - I dunno - his doping with diamorphine, headache from birth / ventouse and maybe his CMPI. Babies with intolerances often refuse the breast as if they can smell baddies. Babies from traumatic births with sore heads (forceps, ventouse or just bumping for hours against the cervix) struggle to - as if it hurts to suck. I was v lucky that my main midwife who taught me to nurse had had her first baby in the NICU and couldn't nurse him for four weeks! She built my confidence and got me to pump to up my supply until he could latch. It helped we were in an old school cottage hospital and I had 2 midwifes to myself. If anyone wants to BF have baby 2 on Orkney - amazing care . It should be like that nationwide.

YW much like the MLU down here - 2 midwives on postnatal bringing us hot chocolate and doing hourly checks. They taught me to cosleep safely and feed lying down.

Wassup, Pikz?

I think I will do just that YW . I'll have a little explore.

Uh oh pikz

Thanks sophia I'll have a look. My friend had a lovely tablecloth which also had very discreet tablecloth clips to keep it in place so I will be investing in some of those too. What a boring topic!

Re bf/ff topic, my main problem was it's so time consuming to begin with. Was fine when I had just DD1 and I could sit on my arse all day/night and feed but I think E really suffered due to my inability to sit and feed her constantly. DH went back to work just over a week after she was born and whilst I did have a certain amount of help with DD1 I didn't have the time to sit and feed her all day. Night was fine, I co-slept and fed all night, but in the day I found it impossible to fit in constant feeding and continuing to be a mother to DD1. People that bf for extended lenghts with more than one child have my absolute admiration. If I'd have had someone on hand to bring me food/drink and help with DD1 I think E wouldn't have had the growth problems that she did and maybe even the tube could have been avoided. Anyway...I'm sounding bitter now and I've had to overcome my own issues re feeding with E and don't really want to go down that route anymore so will stop dwelling on it. I don't give a flying fuck how she's fed now, as long as she is!

And after that rant (sorry not really sure where that came from) E was weighed yesterday and had put on 4ozs in 2 weeks so pleased with her progress.

I'm home alone too but went to a friends house for dinner with the girls. Her DD1 is 8 weeks older than my DD1 and her DD2 is 2 days younger than E. I'm going to be godmother to them both at the end of this month. I was sort of dreading it as DD1 has been so badly behaved lately and her and her friend are both strong characters so can be quite challenging together at times. Well, all 4 of them were an absolute delight. Was lovely to see them playing together so nicely and wonderful to see E playing with a little friend. So a very nice end to a rather testing week.

In uk land finally. Exam went ok, hoping for a pass. So tired, now 12 days of catching up with friends.

I think I need to remove the eBay app from my tablet! That's the bear's winter wardrobe sorted unless he has an (unlikely) growth spurt!

Eliza please don't blame yourself / your feeding for E's feeding issues. I think it was one of those things. Wasn't it reflux? If so you could have been waited on hand and foot and she still may have struggled. You've been through the mill and coped with such grace - you're an inspiration to all of us.

Just had some v news. Our neighbours (70 something lovely old couple who adore Jonas and who are just the loveliest kindest neighbours) have 3 kids in their 40s. Their only son was found dead in his home in Edinburgh on Tuesday. No idea why - awaiting a post mortem. My neighbour (fella) was welling up as he told us. Card, flowers and hot meals for them - would it be insensitive to take Jonas round when I drop stuff off for them? God can you imagine how horrific that must feel as a parent

Ack teeth 7 and 8 at once and it's a nightmare. He's not a good teether.

I haven't posted all day as the bf thing I still find upsetting. I tried so stupidly hard to make it all work. With tons of support but only due to a mum and dp who fully supported me and drove me to bf clinics when I couldn't drive. I dread it not working again as I know I will be stupidly stubborn and end up expressing for months if it doesn't as I was so determined.

Lily have a lovely time

YW not at all. I should think a Jonas cuddle is exactly what they need.

Pikz if there is any karma in the world you deserve to never see another breast pump ever again. I hated pumping (not helped that our cottage was surrounded by dairy farms and I felt like another Orkney heifer at milking time!!!) and couldn't have done what you did. If you have another wee one I hope they are an easy latching, efficient feeding, BF dream x

Yay Lily Looking forward to seeing you and O next week.

The bf chat seems to have stirred up a lot of emotions for the quiche. I have also been thinking lately that I don't think I could have another child. But then that makes me feel very sad for O.

Pass I am so glad you said that as I have found the recent BF'ing chat very hard to read too. And we managed 5 months. My main issue is we didn't stop through lack of support, quite the opposite, but the knock on effect hourly feeds day and night were having on my health. I also think the stress of this in part led to my supply drying up. I am truly thankful for FF and, having worked myself into a massive state with M trying to BF for so long, will have no qualms mixed feeding - or indeed exclusively FF - from much earlier next time. But that's just me, and I half expect a flaming for being so blunt about it. I hated BF and M has been much healthier, a much better sleeper and I feel a much more 'together' mummy since we stopped.

Went to see a house today. Most misleading sales doc ever "requires some upgrading, lots of potential" turned out to be an unmortgagable, flooded out wreck. With a ginormous mould mushroom in the roof space thrown in for good measure. Believe it or not, the cracked avocado bathroom suite was the best part of the house . That will be a definite no then.

GT you really are doing so well, and if you meet your goal then that is a massive achievement. But you will not be any less amazing should you switch.

Have a fab time lily

So sorry to hear your neighbour's news YW. How utterly awful. I think a Jonas cuddle may be a lovely distraction.

Congrats Donna ! I'd love a second but definitely no more!!

My first proper dive lesson tomorrow in nearly 2 years, super excited!

I am still chilled out about feeding.

I enjoyed it while I did it. But as a mum of two, I stopped because it wasn't working for all of us. I will have a good go again next time.

I am very relaxed about feeding choices. :)

I was upset at stopping as that was a very hard decision, but once it was made, I've never looked back with regret once.

Okay, maybe once, when I was sat in my swimming costume pissed wet through in a cramped changing room trying to get a cold formula feed in to an equally wet and pissed off child.

But just once . Promise!

I think we do too much beating ourselves up. It's not good for us. :)

I have two flat pack challenges tonight. A new toybox/side table and a Matilda-size Poang chair (DP couldn't resist having matching daddy daughter chairs ). But the bugger has gone to work and left me to do it!

Boak to mould mushrooms! And no risk of a flaming on here. Hourly feeds at 5 months is just mad and not the norm .

I have been coveting the mini poang for months now!

MM is the toybox/side table the one with the square holes? If so, that was my easiest piece of flatpack to put together . Although Oscar loves to post stuff through the holes

Oh, and next time I intend to take 9 months off work, so I won't be as keen to introduce mixed feeding as I was this time.

How could I have gone back to work with a 5 month old bottle refuser? I have no idea.

We'd have been utterly fucked.

9 months would be a massive difference as they are weaned by then (allergies and other shitness aside of course).

I'd probably try harder next time . Not that I had to try - I actually found the act of feeding easy. Probably because of my profession.

What I didn't find easy was the constant feeding. If I had a baby who fed for 30-40 minutes, I could have done that. O's feeds were ridiculously long. We never knew when he cluster fed as he cluster fed 24/7!

It's down to the baby whether breastfeeding is successful IMO. You can be the most knowledgable experienced breastfeeder, but if the baby won't feed, there isn't much you can change about that. Yes you can keep trying, but that is it.

When O was born, he was little. He wouldn't latch on. I was supine thanks to the forceps/epidural combo and I could not get myself sat up to feed (and as you probably remember we never actually managed feeding lying down). I knew I needed to get colostrum in to him to encourage feeding.

So, I hand expressed, in to a cup I bought in with me, and syringe fed him. I did this 3 times til he latched on. We managed a 10 minute feed. Then he fed for 10 minutes every hour. Til he slept for 5 hours. Then that was it, he cracked it, and started on his marathon feeds.

If I hadn't been a midwife, would I have done the above? No. Would he have had formula by the time I got him latched on? Quite probably.

He was cold - his temp was low, and he was very little for his gestation. I understood the need to get him feeding, and knew how to hand express and how to give it to him. I knew how often to do it, to keep offering the breast etc etc.

What makes me sad is - this could all be taught easily antenatally. Hand expression can be taught, the knowledge of how to get feeding off to a good start can so easily be taught too. Women need to know that it isn't bloody true that you should never wake a sleeping baby! That might be true later down the line, but not a fecking newborn who hasn't fed, or isn't feeding 8-10 times a day!

I spend a lot of my time at work trying to explain all of the above, and it makes the job so much harder when there is already a lack of time, and by the time I might see the woman and baby, they are hours old already. All this needs to start ASAP.

Anyway, I'm getting off my soapbox. I know what is wrong with things, but I'm not saying it publicly here...!