October 2012: onwards, upwards and rolling over?

[YompingJo]

Is this part 5 already? Where did that time go?

Livvy you poor thing. I have no more advice than anyone else, only that you are her parents and you have the choice of what to do. Angelico talking sense there. I do know lots if loving parents who have done CC too, albeit after 5 months. You need to Do what is best for your little family. Perhaps she will settle soon, Impossible to predict. And u second your DP needs to give some help if things are so bad.

First I too had 3c. My consultant apt other week went.....
Are you leaking?
No
Are you in pain?
No
Did you attend physio?
Yes
Keep doing your exercises. That's you finished
And wrote asymptomatic in my notes.

Trying to decide if I'd rather have your follow up. Probably.

First, I am in the UK. Hmm, I did see the gynae and the physio. Me bum muscle was spared (that's a sentence for "things I never thought I would say before I had a baby") so maybe that's the difference!

Right I have 146 messages to read to fully catch up but quick post -
Olivess the same here. Sleep crap - I am going to bed shortly. I try to get as much before midnight as I can.
I had a moment today when I just wanted to cry - I was walking with Paul in pram and his face and head are all small scratches. He looks like he will be a teenager with an ASBO. His skin is dry and he tries to scratch all the time. I have seen 2 GPs, a dermatologist and best friend is a pharmacist - loads of good advice which due to sleep and surgery I have failed to implement 100%. I do nail filing, trimming, swaddling, socks on hands, bath daily, cream about 6-10 times a day. SO family advice last night - do this and that, see this dr. / steroid cream AAAGH!!! I say I am trying to follow advice, but DH is the best. Says only supportive things. Can't people understand there is a kind of implied criticism in unsolicited advice? And worse still when they keep banging on about it!
Meanwhile SiL says she is going home to give her DD a suppository as she can see she is constipated - and no one says a word. They would quickly be told where to go if they did, but I have been advised this is a bad habit for bowel - best to encourage it naturally, water fruit etc.
For all you 20 something mums that feel patronised due to age I AM 40 SOMETHING. on child no 2!
I feel better writing this, because only DHs opinion counts and he thinks I am great

Bora most people I know did it at 5-7 months, the majority from 6 months on. I do know a couple of people who did it younger and they were at the end of their rope with persistent non-sleepers so felt the benefits outweighed the harm for their own personal situations. I appreciate that you are talking about NHS advice - I'm just talking anecdotally.

FirstTime you didn't sound flippant at all - you echoed what I had expected :) There are people on this thread who were running about shortly after CS (I think it was Elpis or Smiley was on a bus with two kids while I still felt half dead :o) What pissed me off was that the hospital was so mean with painkillers because of BFing - but friends who had CSs at other hospitals were given shitloads of drugs in spite of it. I got quite cross and felt like I was being made to choose between painkillers OR breastfeeding. Next time round I will be smuggling my own stuff in (including lactulose - they acted like it was rationed ) and sweetly declining their chocolate teapots paracetamol...

Lisbeth that is in fact what DHs are there for :o Did you get a new au pair sorted? Is there any particular agency you recommend - I think you are in Ireland?

LLivvy I had a general anaesthetic rather suddenly last week. Anyway couldn't feed for 24 hrs after and I didn't have enough time to pump a days worth of milk pre op. So I did half and half formula and milk and I pumped and dumped. Handy enough as you do not have to be sterile/clean.
I saw no change to baby. Mustardy poos as before.

olivess exact same sleep situation here, and similarly to livvy I am starting to eye up cc as an option when she reaches 6 months. If it works within a few nights as many say it did for them, I think the benefits to both babyfunch and me and DH (he will be on night duty by then as I will be back at work with him on leave) will outweigh short term distress. I believe the research that showed severe problems with cortisol flooding the brains of babies left to cry it out was done in extreme settings like Romanian orphanages and involved long term systematic neglect. bora will know more but presumably there hasn't been any research on middle class naice families trying this in the UK for ethical reasons, so the only evidence for people in similar situations to us is anecdotal, and much of that is positive as angelico says. I agree entirely with bora that cc is not ideal and should only be considered ad a last resort, but when your baby wakes hourly and is fed, warm, clean and not in pain, something has to give!

I am hoping for a magical transformation before we get desperate enough to try cc though! if the NHS are that keen for me not to do it they can prescribe me a night nanny

Angelico - Yeah, it was me on the bus with two kids a week post-section. But I remember going out with them both four days afterwards and having to turn around after half a mile because I was about to collapse. I had very uncomplicated recoveries with both the EMCS and ELCS, and my hospital is generous with the drugs (diclofenac/paracetamol combination) but people's experiences vary enormously. It is major abdominal surgery and you certainly need someone to help out at home for at least a week. Also, once you've had two c-sections they monitor you a lot more closely in a third pregnancy in case the scar busts open as you get bigger. I understand that can be very unpleasant.

oh god last night was a horrific feedathon. am dead on my feet. thank goodness for cbeebies

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/1394888-What-worked-for-us-Hope-this-helps

Found this thread on sleep. It's a lighter sleep training plan that looks quite good. Personally I wouldn't do this until DD was 6 months or so but it could probably modified to do a bit earlier.

LondonLivvy That is so hard and no-one would judge you for considering it but please please please listen to Bora! I am doing a degree in Early Years Care and would never recommend leaving a baby to cry. Crying is your babies only voice and they need to know that you will come. It is an attachment issue. Someone upthread (sorry lost track who it was) mentioned that they work with abused kids. It may not be anywhere near this level but it is damaging.

The thing is we live in a society that calls food, warmth , cleanliness 'needs' but emotional comfort is somehow seen as a luxury we should grow out of asap. Pardon me for being blunt but what a load of balls! If your baby is crying to be cuddled it is because they NEED to be cuddled.

Attachement Theory (which is evidence based and widely accepted and respected!) states that if you always respond to your child's needs they will be more confident in you, with a secure attachement and therefore will cry less. Research shows that children who are left to cry actually cry more until it gets really serious, and they give up completely.

Sleep training is not reccomened until at least 2 years of age (sorry!) and even then, go for something like 'pick me up, put me down'.

The book you mentioned will work, but your baby will be learning that when they cry, no one comes. I wouldnt want my children to ever think this. They will learn to self settle in due time, with a supportive parent alongside them.

There is also some evidence that children who are sleep trained need to be re-trained after every change or major even in there life, whereas children who sleep through when they are developmentally ready dont regress back again.

None of that actually solves your sleep problem though so lets focus on solutions!

What support do you have in RL? Does you partner do the night shift sometimes? Is your baby BF or FF? Do you have other children to care for in the day or a job to go to? Sorry to bombared you with questions but I dont want to make suggestions that you cant follow through!

I would have to agree with wantan. I can't see how leaving a baby to cry is a good idea. The thread I linked to above is about getting your baby to self-settle gently with you by it's side at all times, being there to comfort as necessary. Having thought about it 6 months also seems very young to be doing sleep training but I guess that is a personal decision. As is everything to do with babies! You have to decide what is right for you and your family.

Last night there was blood in DS's nappy. I rang NHS direct who were very good but said I should get him checked out. Ended up going all around the houses until we got to the local hospital's out of hours unit. DH, shattered from his work trip, was clutching DS and muttering about the traumatic birth - poor love. Sometimes I forget how hard it had been on him - they'd left him outside theatre while it took half an hour to put a spinal in. He'd been begging people going in and out of the the theatre for information on his wife and was about to barge in when they finally remembered him.

Anyway DS was fine but they just wanted to check his bowels hadn't become twisted. Seeing blood is never good! NHS direct were awesome though.

Sorry so many are having sleep problems, it is the absolute worst - just torture. I don't have much useful to add but I do have lots of sympathy, recommend the no cry sleep solution and all the support I can offer. We're not alone, any of us, with this group thank fuck!

Thanks everyone for the sleep deprivation support. It wasn't too bad last night as I went to bed at nine and DF did the late feed (this is his contribution to nights). I then slept til she woke at 245 (poomageddon - though I don't think this is what woke her as it was cold and drying). Then she briefly shouted at 5 then woke at 620. Not too bad. I think I'll try the gentle technique of olives or no cry sleep solution and if it doesn't work by Easter I will try the cc. It means for me that this should end. And I should only have another couple of months ofsleep deprivation. I hope. Londonmrss I too am not sure i could leave her to cry. So hard. Bora, I take your point and happy to try a more gentle method first. I hope it works!

Squid sadly we can't really afford the maternity nurse again. It got us through the toughest bit but now I have to suck it up. Smorgs, i do record everything (who had the OCD crown?) including food and sleeps, and sadly no pattern i can find. Angelico, I too think that DF could man up a bit (instead of moaning about being woken up in the night, so he's "just as tired as me"). We had a really fun exchange of views this morning about that with tears and venom. Awesome. But there is no way he will be getting up in the night. Still, I do get to go back to bed at lunchtime if necessary (if dd accepts her lunchtime nap).

Goodness re those of you with 3rd degree tears and ultrasound etc. I feel lucky in that respect with just a small tear, (ventouse) though I can't say I feel entirely normal yet in the undercarriage department.

Crazy. Hope you had a good night.

oh and does anyone know why a baby can go from 2 poos a day for several weeks to 7 yesterday. What's that about?

wantan I do appreciate that leaving her to cry isnt ideal. I wouldn't even be considering it if I wasn't so desperate.

as for RL support, I don't have much. I am EBF but express so df can do the 1030pm feed. my parents are old, ill and 300 miles away and the next nearest family is 2000 miles away.

I fortunately dont have other children or a job to go to. just a wedding to organise.

I liked olives solution but at the moment am not sure whether she's actually properly hungry in the night or waking out of habit.

livvy been thinking about you last night and hoping you had a better one.

Sorry - of course mat nurse in no way a long term solution, but it is hard to make brain work with no sleep... sometimes just a couple of nights catch up can help hugely. I seem to remember your family are far away... Is there anyone who could pop over in the day, even, let you get a few hours nap? How is baby at napping in the day ?

I absolutely agree with DF manning the fuck up but tears and venom don't make anyone feel any good. I hope some of it sunk in and he comes back later with a slightly changed tune...

I said before I simply don't think it's reasonable for someone who works in the day to not help with baby at night. It's not like you're doing nothing in the day. If he had an all-night job and an all-day job, perhaps! I am sympathetic - I've studied for exams on top of 90 hour weeks and it's shit - but he chose to have a kid, so he does need to look after it.

I do agree with Wantanorange and Bora about sleep training not recommended before 6 months, but you know that anyway. Like Angelico said - lots of people have done it, sleep deprivation is torture, no judgement here. A gentler method sounds like a good solution. Really hope it works for you.

Poos are a minefield (sometimes literally) - we went from 6-8 a day to one every other day overnight - very disconcerting!

Hope the wedding isn't stressing you out too much either!! On a cuter note, what is baby going to wear for it...? Hugs and sorry if any of my questions/suggestions are unhelpful. xxx

I think the issue of DH's helping is a tricky one. My DH has his own small business. Last night he worked until 1am then came to bed. I can't then ask him to get up in the night. Tonight he'll be working until 10pm in the office. Next week he is away for the whole week. He does as much as he can, getting me breakfast in the morning, getting DD ready for bed etc...However we are reliant on his business doing well and this means he has to work hard. Hopefully his long working hours will change as the business does better but for now that is the way it is. So I can't and wouldn't ask him to get up in the night. I think the balance is an individual one and it depends very much on the personal situation. Having said that it can get frustrating when I'm feeling at my most sleep derived and like livvy we too have shared some harsh words recently.

I deal with the sleep deprivation by getting out of the house and getting fresh air every day, regardless of the weather. DD and I go for very long walks.

Just heard that woman's hour has a section about new fathers today. Could be interesting.

livvy, please ignore me if I'm out of line... but could it have anything to do with the reflux? just because you mentioned the poos as well... could you have accidentally had some dairy? or have you been eating a lot of wheat or something that could be making a difference? I'm sure you've probably thought of this stuff, but just thought it might be worth mentioning.

I think cc is not a decision you will take lightly. My instinct is that it would not be a good idea at this age and probably wouldn't work... and it may just make you feel awful which would not help. But as I said before, you just have to do what you need to do to survive. I'm sure you will thoroughly research so you can feel comfortable with your decision.

I actually don't agree that both partners have to take equal parts of the night shift, although we did in the beginning when she wouldn't settle anywhere but in someone's arms. But it really depends on circumstances- now my husband works 50 hours a week and drives a lot, I think it is more important that he gets enough sleep on weeknights. I insist that he lets me have at least one full night on a weekend. Just that one night actually sets me up for the whole week. Could he just take one full night for you?