Brooking no argument for babies who sleep, eat, smile and behave perfectly at all times. Yeah right!

[scarletfingernail]

New thread, here we go...

Biscuits can you get out to do some Christmas shopping with just DS2 while DS1 is at pre school or nursery? I'm not missing the point, I know you need a break from both of them sometimes, I was just thinking it might help you feel a little more festive? Apart from that you could go late night shopping with Thurs or Fri and leave DH with the boys?

Of course I know what you're getting at really. The feeling of not being free to ever do anything you'd like to do and the tedium of everyday life being a SAHM with 2 kids. I feel guilty for feeling that way too at times. For the most part I love it and I know I'd hate to go back to work just yet but other times I feel very jealous when DH leaves for work. I know it's work but it's 11 hours where he gets to manage his own time rather than having 2 little people decide if he's going to have a good day or not. I'm stuck in all week this week too and both DC are ill. I said to DH that I was feeling miserable about it because there was a couple of bits I still wanted to pick up from the shops. He said he'd get them on his way home and it made me rage. He just doesn't get that nipping out to the shop after being stuck in all day is something to look forward to!

Scream I think now you've decided to CC you'll see results quite quickly. I suspect it's as hard for you as it is her but if you can stick to it I bet you'll have it cracked in a couple of days. I've not had to do it with either of mine but I remember going cold turkey with DS's dummy and it was awful for 2 nights, ok on the 3rd and then like it had never happened on the 4th. Just when you think you can't take any more they seem to get it. Brooking for you.

DS and DD both still ill. DS slightly better and DD slightly worse

Having just gone back to work I can easily say that having a bit of time separate from my beloved ds' has been good for me. Even though work is horrible getting a bit better, being at home is so very hard. My DH didn't get it either. I felt that I wasn't really a person just someone who facilitated my ds' lives.a very important and vital job but not much of me around.

scream I know cc isn't what you'd choose but you really are helping a in the long run. she'll be much happier with more sleep at night as will you.

Hello all!

Biscuits, I want to echo what everyone else has said. It's really hard-going having 2 children to look after all day. It's really hard having one! I take my hat off to you - you work really hard and manage really well. I am actually looking forward to going back to work after the New Year (sort of, anyway) because it means I'll have a break from M 4 days a week and if I'm knackered after a long night of very little sleep, I don't have to deal with her in the morning. I'll probably change my tune once I get back to work, but yy to the relentlessness of childcare and the inability to get out of the house and do things.

Scream, please update on cc over the next few days! After last night I'm starting to seriously consider it.

Scarlet, Brooking for DS and DD to get well soon!

So, last night was a total disaster. To start with, I developed a temperature of 38.2 during the afternoon and felt like death. M slept all afternoon, starting at 1. I had to wake her at 3.30 to put her in the car to go and fetch DH and she went back to sleep and slept until 4.30 when we got home. She went to bed at 8.20, then got up 6 times between then and 2.15, when I tried taking her into bed with me. I kind of cracked. I was so hot and sweaty and tired, I just couldn't cope with a wriggly baby next to me. I was overwhelmed with claustrophobia and I sort of panicked. I switched M from one side of me to the other, then tried lying on my back and letting her lie on my chest, but all it did was wake her up thoroughly, with all the moving around. She started to wriggle, coo, cry and flail her little hands around, so I sat up and cried 'I can't cope, I can't cope'. DH woke up with a jump, took M and let me thrash around a bit, but M was by this time wide awake, so he got up with her. I calmed down gradually, fell asleep and woke up at 4.30 alone in bed. DH and M were asleep together on the living room floor. They stayed there until morning, and luckily M had nursery this morning so I got to sleep in. Not my finest parenting hour.

Scream how did it go for the 2pm nap? I really hope you get results quickly and it isn't too tough on you. Are you doing it again this evening? We're with you every step of the way you know. It's a really tough thing to do, especially when I know it is something you weren't keen on. I suppose as parents though sometimes we have to do the tough things for our little people don't we :(. REALLY hoping that it is all going OK. And you are not a bad person at all! A baby that doesn't sleep is exhausting. Fact. Sleep deprivation is a well known form of torture. Eventually you have to find a way that you can both sleep and I hope this yields results super quickly for you xxxxx

Scarlet sorry to hear both DC are still poorly. Was today panto day? Did you get there? Hope so and that it was enjoyed by all xxx

Too are you feeling better today? I would have been just the same if I was feeling poorly, with a wide awake baby and DH just snoring away next to us!

Muscial - I do hope that is Iz's second tooth through now and you get a break from teething for a bit. DS2 has been biting anything and everything for ages now and still no sign of any further teeth. He set the bar quite high with those first 6 - I expect him to get them out quicker now

Thank you all for all your lovely supportive comments :) You brookers rock And, as per usual, you've all hit the nail bang on the head!

Pomme your point about DH not wanting me to tell him to resign is an excellent one and will almost certainly be aired!

We do quite well at getting out and about - yesterday we had two exciting trips to the doctors for DS1 and today he had his hair cut. You're right of course, getting out does make it better. Although I do feel bad that I don't really take DS2 to any baby groups (I did loads with DS1), I am desperately trying to Do Stuff while DS1 is at pre-school although I keep thinking I should try to get into the habit of taking DS2 somewhere other than the supermarket . Maybe this could be my new year's resolution?

And yes Scream that's a great point about it all being stuff that you just can't let slide. 'Oh well, I'll do their dinner tomorrow' just doesn't seem to cut the mustard does it

Musical I like your idea of a day off. DH and I are having our weekend in London for Christmas (although it is still yet to be arranged) and I am looking forward to that enormously :) DH is pretty good with doing stuff for the DC and does pull his weight when we're together which is good. Although he finds my 'system' for sterilising and formula making absolutely baffling. Hard to believe for someone with so much brain power

Scarlet - your point about Dh just picking stuff up on the way home is exactly what has been getting to me this week. And I have been a total raving lunatic a bit vocal about it too. I don't think we'll actually need to do any more christmas shopping particularly once he's done one more trip to the Other Big City.

And weirdly, I don't even particularly want to go on my own. I want to go WITH DH - we have always gone christmas shopping together (normally at the last minute) and I miss it I think. more so than I thought I would. I doubt any of you would remember me having a meltdown last year while christmas shopping at 6 months pg and DH had stood me up for work and I was crying in the shopping centre not being able to think of things to buy. I don't think I should be allowed to go shopping on my own!

Hawthers I think when I went back to work after DS1 I can remember (once I'd settled in a bit) being a bit glad of the time when I could make AND drink a cup of tea within the same hour window, and just be the master of my own destiny (well, a wee bit you know!)

Ergh, I was supposed to be sorting out all the credit card bills and receipts tonight and I really cannot be arsed. I did all the ironing earlier while DS2 napped and DS1 was at pre school. I'm sure DH wouldn't dare comment on my idleness if I don't do it since it is clear I am a bit loopy at the moment. I'm off to the sofa with a Crabbies

quick one- I know exactly what you mean biscuits , we get out every day without fail, but not to go into town shopping- that's too hard to load 3 into the car, double plus single pushchair as I still can't fold my triple and get it in the car (so only go with someone else), unload all three, negotiate shops with side by side buggy (some totally unaccessable, eg our M&S upstairs- which is womens and childrens stuff). I just wouldn't. So I go to playgroups, parks, for walks, to some friends houses, outings that are family friendly. That's it.

too, cc is not the only option!! I hardly dare post it, but I'd say S is easily as bad as M and we're possibly having some success. Last night he woke twice, yes twice, and I only fed him once. We're doing pick up/put down, Baby Whisperer style slightly adapted. First night it took forever for success, woke loads, even ended up in with me for 90 minutes when I was too knackered/dispirited to carry on. But then 1 night of 6 wakings by 2 and one after 2am but only fed twice, 1 night of 2-3 wakings, only 2 feeds. Last night 2 wakings 1 feed!!!! No tears.

I just feel for me, it would be so confusing for him- one night it's ok for him to wake lots, he'll be fed, cuddled, taken into bed, sleep with one of us, we try anything and everything to help him back to sleep - then the next night its unacceptable and he's left to cry in his cot. I just can't get my head round that. So we lumped it, picked up the routine re:naps (waking if sleeping too long, if 20 min nap, tough, wait til next time (though they are approximate, but between 10-11 for starting am and 2-3 for starting pm nap), stuck with bedtime, no matter how long we stayed bored upstairs settling and FX getting results with consistency. Definitely harder than cc but it's my preferred option. HOWEVER it's early days (and could be fluke), but you could so do it. A twin mum on a group I go on on fb cracked it in 3 days with hers- to sleeping through!!! Massive, massive improvements here in 3 days. so far, please, please don't be a fluke

Though don't think I'm disapproving of you scream, horses for courses and everyone has to do what they can manage so good luck with the CC!

hmm, not so quick..

Sounds like some promising improvement there Dream - of course it isn't a fluke - this is the start of all three sleeping through........ How did B do last night?

x-post biscuits, I remember your meltdown . I so agree, I miss all the outdoorsy stuff dh and I used to do, and he says 'oh, you could get into running again' but I want to be able to take off with him, climb a mountain for the day, have a long hot shower and a take away and a film. Not going to happen for years and I miss it. The trouble with twins and a toddler with a small age gap is that my dad can't manage them at all, he just can't, he finds being left with the babies alone for 30 min (if dd wants me to play in the garden or something) very stressful (granted its hard keeping both entertained now and 2 howling babies is grimbo), so he will never have all 3, my mum may have a bash, for a brief period, but she finds it exhausting, dh's parents i'd never permit sole charge to are much more elderly and decrepit- they have a list of health complaints (heart failure, loadds of arthritis, new joints etc etc) and are much older and very overweight- how they could manage my three, or even just the babies when they can't get on and off the floor- well, they just couldn't. So while I'm blessed, and adore my little brood, I'm also stuck with them.... So I go a bit loopy like you biscuits in fact, i go totally mental too

B is still on 2 night feeds, at toally differnt times to S, so I'm still up at least 4 times, but still so much better . But there goes my theory B would be a once-a-night man by himself!!

I would never have thought I'd be saying 'wow, only 4 wake ups a night? That's awesome', but there we go, it is comparatively! And if they'll go back to sleep more quickly that must help a LOT? I never minded getting up to feed as much as getting up trying to shush and jiggle a baby back to sleep.

Hope the improvement continues

well, i say 4, S woke at 11:30 last nigiht and h went in and did PU/PD for me, it goes much better for the non-bf-er! I was awake and on tenterhooks though til peace once more reigned, so it was 11:30, 2am for S, 3am for B, 5:50 for B- got him back in bed for 6:20 but then S up for the day (since 2:30!) by 6:45. Still, I'm positive again

That should have been 'dh' He's definitely dh for PU/PD-ing

R's sleep was definitely improving before the boys got yet another flippin cold and cough. touch wood he's settled a bit earlier some nights and stayed asleep for an initial few hours.

if only i could take advantage and get to bed too! i end up doing my bottle washing up and trying to spend a bit of time with DH.

Although on bad nights i do of course feel a bit mental from lack of sleep, my zero effort plan with added nervous co sleeping seems to be working for me. I couldn't do CC at all, R feels too wee to be going without any milk at night and i really can't stand the sound of crying

i guess with him being number 2, I'm fairly convinced that nighttime madness will pass, with only further interludes for teething of molars and illness.

i was still unimpressed when i fell asleep sittin. up as usual, woke up about an hour before getting up time and put DS2 in his cot. just as i fell asleep, DS1 half woke up and shouted , so i had to get him to be quiet!

if only DH wasn't impossible to wake..

i also totally get the being able to moan about things you can't change, sometimes it just feels better to get stuff off your chest!

here here jaggy, my philosophy is similar to yours, I just hot the wall- hard!! and to be fair, while a bit of effort, it's not been mentally hard as he's not been crying... Glad DS2 is settling down a bit. I hate the other one waking in th emornign- S and B do it a lot- B will have a feed between 5 and 6am and sleep til 7:30, 8, S is more a 6:30, 7 baby. Gah. DD varies depending on daytime nap or no daytime nap- we're still at that awkward stage...

*hit. Csn't type tonight

so are we! DS1 only had a small nap today so who knows when he'll be asleep. he still sounds a bit sniffly. DS2 has been asleep on my knee for about the last 20 mins, but I'm too busy scoffing galaxy counters to get up and put him in bed. :-D

i was putting asleep DS2 in the cot with DS1 awake, but kind of got out of the habit when they had the last cold.

can't remember if i told you that DS1 got an afternoon place for nursery, almost exactly coinciding with nap time. I'm worried he'll either fall asleep or go hyper and wreck the joint.

is it normal to feel a bit nervous about your pfb going off out on their own to pre-school?

Hooray for Iz's sleep settling down a bit - what a little angel! Also, WOOHOO for the DTs doing better!! That's such good work Dream, and top marks to your DH as well! Fingers crossed for sleeping through for all 3 by Christmas!

No brooking for Scarlet's LOs to get better asap! Poor kiddies! Are the ABs still going well? Did you get to the panto?

Too last night sounds like such a nightmare you poor thing (I definitely feel your pain!) Don't feel guilty for maxing out, there's only so long anyone can hang in there for! Well done to your DH for stepping in! I hope you feel better today?

I also totally understand everything Biscuits and Dream have said about missing parts of your old life. Obviously you two are coping with much more than me but even with just one LO I feel like my life has been turned upside down. I used to be very social, out several nights a week and doing lots of dinner parties. Now I feel like a hermit! Even when I do go out I just can't keep up, I'm too tired! Looking forward to one day in the far distant future reclaiming a little piece of my old life!

I'm happy to update on cc for anyone who's interested. Can I just say though, whether or not it works I'm definitely not turning into an ambassador for it!! I really hoped I would never get to this point. I have tried doing a strict routine for several weeks, I also tried PU/PD for weeks, but none of it worked for me. I have every respect for supermums like Dream who can make non-crying methods work - that would always be my first choice!

Today it took half an hour of on/off crying to get DD to sleep for her morning nap at 10. I was checking in on her every 5 minutes, and by the end I realised that the reason you're supposed to extend the intervals between checking is because it starts to become counter-productive. I found that she would stop crying around 3/4 minutes in, but when I went in at 5 minutes she'd start up again. Still, she was asleep 30 mins after we started, and she slept for half an hour.

At 2pm it took a whole hour of on/off crying to get DD to sleep :( That's been my worst bit (so far) :( I was going in to check on her every ten minutes. She wasn't crying continuously for each ten minute interval, she would cry for a couple of minutes, sleep for a couple of minutes, and repeat. It was still so stressful though, and I was ready to cry by the time she finally settled. If I hadn't been so exhausted I would definitely have cracked. She fell asleep properly at 3, woke at 4 and cried for 3 or 4 minutes, but I patted her and left again, and she went back to sleep. I woke her at 5.

Then I did the bedtime routine at 8, and she was practically asleep by the time I finished her story at 8.45. I left the room at 8.50, and she fussed for a few minutes but was asleep by 8.55. She hasn't woken yet, but I'm absolutely dreading tonight.

Thanks for the support No Brookers, it means alot particularly when I know none of you are cc fans. Trust me, I'm not a cc fan either! My poor little A :(

I know what you're doing is really really tough. Little A is so clever I bet she's got it already

Interesting going so far. Little A went to sleep at 9 after less than 5 mins crying. At 10.30 I went to bed, and made too much noise (d'oh!) which woke her. So I gave her a sort-of dreamfeed, brushed her teeth, and did my standard 30sec of patting/lullaby before "leaving" (hiding behind the end of the cot). She cried for less than 3 mins, and was asleep within 5. She woke again at 12, again I did the 30sec patting/lullaby then "left", she cried for 30sec (literally - I had my timer on!) and was asleep within 2mins!

I don't think this has been standard cc so far, I think that little A's sleeping problem is mainly to do with her expectation of being able to sleep with me if I'm in the room, so my "leaving" every time she wakes is actually working miracles! So far, touch wood! Of course she still seems to be waking frequently so far, but only being awake for 5 mins, and settling herself back to sleep, is a VAST improvement already!

Hope I haven't jinxed the rest of the night... 3 - 6 am is always the worst bit!

Go Little A - good going so far scream.

Ds2 has been waking me for regular updates on A's progress....

how nice of DS2 biscuits!

I've got a poor coughing DS2 waking himself up here. :( Not sure if he'll be able to settle ok in the cot like this. zzzzzzzzz

Ditto, Jaggy. Every time M looked like going back to sleep she would cough or sneeze and wake herself up again. I took her to bed with me, NOT to co-sleep but just so I could snuggle under the duvet and read while she did her feed-doze-feed thing, but sadly after about 5 minutes she let out a banshee wail 3 inches from DH's ear. Clearly, it's not enough that she had me up, she has to have him up too. Anyway, as soon as he jumped, opened his eyes and swore, she was delighted and started trying to grab his face, and that was basically that. We tried to get her to go back to sleep, but she wasn't having any. Am back in the living room letting her play for a bit.

Okay, have finally read back through the thread. Let's see if my sleep-deprived brain can remember any of it.

Biscuits, yy to not being able to put off eg making dinner. Not just not being able to put it off until tomorrow, but knowing that it MUST be ready by 6 at the latest or M is going to be totally overtired and eat nothing whatsoever. Which is what happened tonight. We had boiled eggs and soldiers all round because we were too knackered to cook; I was boiling the eggs at 5.59; M ate one bread-and-butter soldier and the tiniest fraction of egg yolk and that was it. She ate some yoghurt, with much cajoling, but that was it. I'm beginning to think I might have to night-wean her just so she eats a bit more during the day out of sheer hunger. Although she might still have a sore throat.

I'm feeling better but still have a v sore throat. I had to give DH my piece of chocolate today because it stung too much going down!

Scream, that is great progress! Hope it's still going well.

Dream, that sounds amazing - will buy the Baby Whisperer when I get paid on Friday. not counting the days or anything The enforced delay will give me time to concentrate on my strategy of introducing a second nap, which so far, is not working at all.

Oh, and I go mental too, every now and then, and I only have one to look after and DH doesn't work nearly such long hours as either Biscuits' or Dream's. But yes, I just want to be able to go and wander round town on my own, sit in a cafe and read a book!

Little A woke about ten mins ago, for the first time since the 12 midnight wake She had 30sec of patting/lullaby, then I "left", and she cried for less than 2mins before settling into a restless sleep. She's still pretty restless ten mins later, so I'm still "hiding" like a moron but hoping to be back in bed asap! Can't wait till we're back home and she has her own room!

Little E, go to sleep for Mummy Biscuits now, no more updates for now! Same to you little M, let Mummy Too sleep!

too DS2 did sleep for an hour or so, then he woke up and i did my falling asleep feeding sitting up thing. he's now back in bed but i have to get in the shower and try to wake up. grr!

really hope i can get a bit more rest when i don't have an alarm going off at 5.30! roll on Friday... or maybe Saturday when I'm off till after new year.