November 05 Babies

[Rodeo]

A new thread for us and our little 2, 3 and very nearly 4 month olds, where is the time going??!!

I really really hope they do go ahead with the smoking ban and that it doesn't fade away by next summer. I really really hate smoking, especially in restaurants.

I went clubbing in San Fransisco, there was no smoking in the club, and it was fantastic. It was full and the people were all having a good time without cigarettes.

Smokers claim they are pro-choice, but what choice are they giving non-smokers? We have no option but to breathe in their smoke if they do it around us.

And don't even get me started on fag butts etc...

Wish I had time to read all about what you've said Beartime, I'm very interested. Care to summise?

I've got a really silly question. If i've sterilised his bottle etc..and prepared his feed to go out, is the bottle still sterile four hours later? And is this also the case when prepared and kept in fridge?
Also, have started to bring a thermos flask to bed along with freshly sterilised bottle for when he needs topping up in the night, however, is that bottle still sterile hours later? Hope I don't sound OTT on the whole sterilising thing but I'm confused.
Next question, so I've got a bottle with 3 scoops of formula in it ready to add hot water later in the night. When I add the water the formula causes water level to rise so not exact, therefore is it better to have the formula in seperate bottle/container ready to add to the hot water and not vice versa?

Sorry, I know my questions are a bit dull. Thanks anyway. While we're at it, any ideas as to why he is now waking up at 3 and 6am for a feed when he's been given 3oz top up at 11pm?!?

Thanks ladies

Anyone up for a coffee this week? Blackheath or somewhere in the area.

We had a very nice half-term week but Tobes has worn himself out almost every day and had near hysterics tonight, he was so overtired. I'm off to open a bottle of wine and destress. Will catch up with the thread during my hopefully peaceful morning tomorrow while Tobes is at nursery.

I'll get on the high horse with you Rodeo. Thoroughly agree that what's right for one family isn't right for the next. Amongst my friends there are SAHMs, people working part-time and ones working fulltime. We cover most of the available options for childcare and each family has worked out what suits them best. Most of the children are thriving regardless of where they spend their day.

Well, we've joined you BEKS, gave Ash some mashed potato this evening! I was pretty sure we wouldn't make it till 6 months but had hoped to make it to 4 (he's 15 weeks tomorrow)! However he has been waking every night for about 10 days after sleeping through very well. The past 4 nights it has been twice a night AND he has been feeding every 11/2-2 hours during the day. Time to get pureeing methinks
Quite mixed feelings about it, bit sad that my milk isn't enough now but then its because my milk has done so well that he is the size he is and needs a bit more. As I said, mixed feelings.

Big week for us this week as Tessa is 3 (eek!) on Wednesday and DH hits 40 on Thursday. Went out and bought her her first bike today though its now hidden until the big day. She was SO excited Didn't even make too much fuss when we insisted that it wasn't going to be a pink and tassly one (having one eye on its 'hand-me-down value )
We've avoided the party route this year (and I'm SO pleaesed having been to 4 so far this month with another to go, far too much like hard work. We'll take a cake to Mums and Tots on Tuesday (the chocolate one with Smarties on that has been requested ) and we are taking her to the London Aquarium on her birthday. She LOVES anything underwater (I blame Nemo) and told me about 3 months ago that she really wants to go swimming underwater (that could be my fault as I used to dive) Thought the aquarium was the next best thing.

Right, I hear squawking, think I'm required!

Evening everyone! CHACHA - I think the answer to your question is that the bottles are as sterile as they are going to be (and need to be) (I read somewhere that after 20 mins, whereever they are - fridge/bag/room) they become 'unsterile'). I don't know of anyone whose baby has been made ill by using bottles kept in the fridge/bedroom at night, as long as they are kept reasonably cold. If more than a few hours out of the fridge I put ice pack next to bottle (or even just on bedroom windowsill) for night feeds/trips out, though bear in mind they are a bugger to heat up with thermos! (might be an idea to take the ready-made bottle up with you and keep it cool, rather than have to 'make up' a bottle at night (BTW, I'd definitely put water in first, before powder) (or get the ready made milk for night feeds/outings?). Reminds me of a friend who got so wound-up about the whole sterilising thing that she ended up sticking her hand in sterilisng solution to put the teats in the bottles !!! Also, if in doubt I always remember that you're allowed to keep a feed on the go for up to an hour, and the teat is hardly sterile by then?. RE: night wakings, you know Z best of all of course (so just a thought) but could he be waking out of habit? (ie.not really hungry?); you could try offering him some cooled, boiled water, or just wait to see if he settles himself? Obviously if he's hungry, then I'd feed, but maybe try increasing late evening top-up first? Just thoughts (you know where they come from !).
Hope you enjoy your wine TEx- a well deserved rest for you next week . RODEO/NOVA: you know I'd even ban smoking on the streets . It annoys me when people stand at bus stops waving their fags in your face, right at pram level too! My poor dad is banished to the garden to have his 'cancer sticks' (and this is in his own home!).
HI TWINKLE: was thinking about you this morning when putting pumpkin patch outfit on Libby - you know I can't believe we finally made it back from MH - it seems such an adventure! Fancy Manchester again soon? Hope Josh's ear infection has cleared up - must have been hard for both of you. Have a great time in N.East - careful on the roads!
Well, I have to start on some 'proper' work tonight, as although I'm not at work until April, have a publishing deadline of 1st March (don't get excited, it aint no Jackie Collins!) - boring work related stuff, so very hard to get motivated!.
Mmmm, maybe a cup of tea first!
Speak later,
Diege .

Just got them all off to bed, hurray so a quick post before 24!

Just had my sis and her boyfriend round for Sunday dinner, they're stony broke and I'm lonely! Also Joe needed some male attention! He'll go off with any man, he followed the gasman upstairs at his gran's on Friday and wouldn't leave him alone and if I take him into work he'll sit with the closest male customer. Seriously though, I'll have to keep a close eye on him....

Dp back tomorrow, thank goodness, I really don't know how single mum's do it alone, they must be saints

You are v. welcome up on my high horse Tessasmum Tessa and Ash have almost the same age gap as Bella and Joe! 2 years and 8 months! They are 6 and a half and nearly 4 now and are great together, loads of fun That's so cute about her love of all things underwater! She'll have a lovely time!

Nova, with you on the smoking ban! I work in a bar, and I know it is my choice to work in those surroundings but I have to wash all my clothes (inc. bra!) and my hair before I go to bed, they smell awful. Not sure if we have any smokers on the thread, if we have that's not meant to offend!!

Twinkle, have a lovely time! Poor little Josh Is he better now? Ear infections are awful

Chacha, not sure about bottle q's. I think if the bottle is made up straight after sterilising it stay's sterile until you open it doesn't it? I'd probably measure the powder out into a separate container for the night feed though. I think made up bottles can be used for up to 24 hours if kept in the fridge, but outside I know it's much less but not sure of the time limit, I've probably reiterated a load of info you already know and have missed the point completely though

Oh no, Jess is crying!!! Bye!

Good-o! She's off again, hopefully tht's it now, she doesn't want to incur the wrath of Annie when Keifer's on!!

Diege, crossed post took me so long to type that last one Knew you'd be along with the bottle answers soon!

At least your dad's open about smoking! My dad 'gave up' 6 years ago supposedly, we have to go throughthe whole rigmarole of pretending not to know!! He's alway's having crafty ones - in the shed, in the car, out walking the dogs, out of windows it's pathetic! Don't know how long we've got to keep it up for, he'll be on his deathbed in his 80's and we'll be pretending we don't know (if he lives that long - his dad died of lung cancer before I was born from smoking )

Oh bloody hell, she's crying again! the sod....

Good-o! She's off again, hopefully tht's it now, she doesn't want to incur the wrath of Annie when Keifer's on!!

Diege, crossed post took me so long to type that last one Knew you'd be along with the bottle answers soon!

At least your dad's open about smoking! My dad 'gave up' 6 years ago supposedly, we have to go throughthe whole rigmarole of pretending not to know!! He's alway's having crafty ones - in the shed, in the car, out walking the dogs, out of windows it's pathetic! Don't know how long we've got to keep it up for, he'll be on his deathbed in his 80's and we'll still be pretending we don't know (if he lives that long - his dad died of lung cancer before I was born from smoking )

Oh bloody hell, she's crying again! the sod....

Agree with you Nova. Going out for drinks/dinner in New York is fantastic now they have a smoking ban.

ChaCha - I have sterilised bottles with 6oz of water in them, to which I add the powder (already measured out in another container) when a feed is needed.

Mine have the bottle at room temp, so bottles with just water in are taken out of the fridge a couple of hours before needed.

No idea if they are still sterile after being in fridge/sitting on the side.............

Do you all realise that in the next week or so theres going to be a due in november 2006 thread !! Just been thinking about that!!!

chacha-yes the bottles will be fine- i wouldnt worry about them too much,the way youve explained is fine and like someone else said ive never heard anyones LO be ill, I sterilise only 80% of the time and only ever sterilise stuff up to 6months.........
(NICU + SCBU dont sterilise-and theyre very sick poorly babies and much more likely to get ill than our full term babies.....food for thought.....)

Hmmm on the nursery debate... ...hate threads like that as its a very emotive subject for a lot of people, but basically cant agree with you....Im a modern women, I havent come from the stone ages and I think the era of being submissive to your husbands was up about 60 yrs ago at least.......I value/see myself(and I hope others do) as more than JUST a mum, Im me, I have hopes and dreams and ambition and just because you stay home and care for your children till they go to school-(its great if you can(and IF you want to))they wont necessarily thankyou for it......or hate you for sending them to nursery.
I personally find (or at least did with one child, hopefully will do when our routine gets better this time) Looking after home and children a fairly basic task, fairly straightforward and most of it I find second nature, I personally found that the longer I was at home with ds1(b4 ds2 came along) the more i felt like my brain was frying as I wasnt getting enough of things I needed like mental stimulation, adult conversation, something other than gluing/painting/drawing/playdough/reading with a 18 month old.......
I believe that the statement debated is a very sweeping statement that isnt true in all cases......ie I think its better for a child to be in nursery, doing fun activities with others their age, developing their social skills etc etc etc rather than stuck at home with a mother that is running around doing housework and other household duties.....I mean if you have the time to spend with your LO's to sit down every day for hours and hours at a time reading/painting etc etc etc.......fair play...if you cant, leave 50% of it to those who can, then get on with the things your good at/can succeed in/are improving yourself with....... just MHO......

LL&S mum-I know! have been checking to see every time Im on to see if ones been started......how sad am I!?...lol

Bother - I just wrote a looooong post, then my broadband cut off in the middle and lost it all

ChaCha to summarise (Rodeo and Tess DON'T read this )- basically I said women were created to help their husbands (and be a companion to them) and that is their main job, then after that it is looking after the home and children, being hospitable and doing good works and backed it up with scripture - which people REALLY liked

JenJam I don't think anyone has the potential of being as caring, loving, and understanding as a child's own mum, just in my limited experience of 3 months! So personally I don't think it would necessarily harm your child, but I believe it would be infinitely better for her to have you at home with her, even if it requires financial and emotional sacrifice. And bear in mind, you'll never get the chance to do it again. There, I've said my piece - you did ask

I had replied to lots of people, but don't know if I have the energy to go thru it all again, esp. as now on dial up!

sorry busy - forgot to tell you not to read it

Beartime, Me and Tess weren't getting at you personally (even if we don't agree with you! ) Just find it is a guilt-ridden topic - and one that's never directed at the fathers, just the mothers!

I do understand where you are coming from though, and I did like your comment 'bear in mind, you'll never get the chance to do it again' as that is very true. They grow up so quick

You just wait until Caleb is 2 and a half and running you ragged, you'll wonder what you ever did without playgroup

busy - i agree.

My thoughts on becoming a SAHM (i'm now a little ashamed to say this).... being a bit of a careerist before my boy arrived, I thought that being JUST a sahm, or having it as the dominant/main occupation) would result in the death of me in terms of motivation/having get up and go, and intellectual stim. I just saw sahm-ship as 'limiting' and I couldn't see myself opting for it. N.B. backthen i didn't know many mums, only those I saw on the bus or in Sainsbury's - i observed very rich/very rushy aroundy (i assumed they were workingmum) or sahm - hippymum, chavmum or door-mousey/homely who faded into the background mum. This might just be where i live, when/where i shop/go on the bus, or something to do with very strange filter i had on my childless glasses at that time.

ACtually thinking outloud now...when i first went on msn i really was baffled why some mumsnetters had mum suffix names such as XXXXmummy or XXXmum i initially bonded with those who had non-mummy names.

So there i was - I thought i knew exactly how i'd fit in in when i finally got to mumsville (rushy worky mum - child in nursery 4-5 days a week) and that would address my worry about losing MY identity / individuality when i became a mum.

Well buXger me, only now I'm realising how wrong I was. as I have fallen head over heels with F and I've got to know a load of mums - ALL of my thoughts have been turned upside down. Mum's R us.

I would probably enjoy staying at home with Finn allday everyday until he goes to school. And I imagine finn would benefit in many ways from having 1:1 attention. But I would miss feeling a success at work, and the self-sufficiency and independence I have/had. Right or wrong, I equate money with personal freedom and power. I feel that no money = less freedom and less of a voice. It's imp,. to me to uphold the sense of equality that currently exists between DP and myself. I couldn't defer or 'do as i'm told/asked' by my partner. I've spent the whole of my life so far avoiding that type of relationship. At heart, I believe childcare is the responsibility of both parents and that having a baby shouldn't involve only one person making all the sacrifices. so i need a solution that suits both parents.

In my ideal world i would like my partner to drop down to a 4 day week, while i work a 3 or 4 day week (requiring childcare for 2 or 3 9-6 pm days per week). Everytime i see desperate housewives and lynette's inter5actions with her boss i can see that being me. Be interested to know whether anyone tried a shared care and whether it worked and what rest of you plan/hope to do. I really don't know what will happen with us - given my thoughts and the difficulties in making shared childcare work. but, my thoughts are evolving all the time..

well that went on a bit. Hope no-one is offendedl. i just wanted to share my perspective and thoughts on life after baby adn the childcare issue, esp as I asked what you all thought.

night night
Jenjam/Finnsmum

MUMS R US, not MUMS'S R US. only today(in my head, while on the bus) i muttered to myself about John Lewis's incorrect use of the apostrophe in their shop window in huge letters something like 'LCD Ready TV's on sale'. You don't mind it in the kebab shop but John Lewis. This is incorrect, isn't it!?

oooh, bad punctuation!! My pet hate! v. surprised at John Lewis .
Right, my final words on nursery debate, as it relates to my plans. My 'personal' take is that I need to work for mental stimulation, and my own development. I have a doctorate and do research as a sociologist, which itself was something inspired by my own strong feelings against social injustice and inequality. I don't personally think any kind of submissive behaviour, for the sake of submissiveness, is a healthy human relationship, for women or men, and see people as individuals, not gender roles. I think the lessons of feminsim should be that as women, and men, we can choose whatever 'roles' in life we wish, for our own, and others' fulfillment, whether this be SAHM/SAHD, or full-time paid work. In other words, I wouldn't judge others' choices, in fact think it's a lot easier being at work than at home with toddlers!!).
So, to summarise, I wouldn't take issue with views like yours BEARTIME, as they are important to you, and you obviously get a lot of fulfilment from them. As GOLDEN says, where we would fall out is when one of us tries to say our views are 'better' (morally, socially) than the other (the thing civil wars are made of .
Right, I'm well and truly sick of this horrible debate now - it makes my stomach churn when I think of it, and agree with RODEO that it's energy wasted when we should just accept that people are fulfilled in different ways, and that an unfulfilled and frustrated mum (whether she works outside the home or not) is definitely not good for the child !!
As opinions were asked for, that's mine then! No-0ne should be offended I think, as the central thing is, everyone is different, and you know yourself and your family best!
We're not known as the nicest stream on mumsnet for nothing !!
Diege.

Beartime - don't agree with you I'm afraid, but love the debate. It would be a boring world if we were all the same.

Re: 'potential' - there are plenty of crap mums about and plently of carers who are fantastic with kids. The assumption that just because you are a mum you are 'best' for you child does not hold true in many cases - indeed, children are more likely to be murdered/abused by a member of their familiy than anyone else.

PS Beartime. - Do you reject evolution too?

Echo JenJam - re: rushy-abouty mums who think stimulation for the baby is taking it to sainsbury's or parking it in front of the box..............

JenJam - I'm going back to work in June and have found/will have a sole charge NNEB nanny for 3 days a week. She has nearly 20 years experience, has fantastic refs and is keen to keep her skills uptodate. She already has the twins for half a day a week.

I can't share a nanny with two babies! Shame, because it is gonna cost us a fortune. I remember that is how we got into private education with DS1. Nursery/nanny care was more expensive than school fees so we did not feel the transition or miss the money as we were already used to shelling it out.............................

I added it up the other day (school fees from age 4 till now) I could have been wearing designer clothes and driving a brand new Merc - convertabile, and prob. a holiday home too!!!

Diege - agree with you - going out to work is def. easier than staying at home with kids.

Disagree with you Diege - I think we sould have contraversial debates on this thread. Not to say that I'm not eager to post about each and every runny nose the twins get or how many times I've loaded the washing machine today, but it is nice to think about something a bit more challenging on this thread now and again - even if it is on a topic we might be a bit uncomfortable with.

Apologies to those of you who hate bad spelling/grammar - mine is rubbish. I blame the Comprehensive system of education!!! Oooooo, another debate maybe?

.

golden-sorry, nosey Q here, but how much do you pay pa for private education-you dont have to answer but im seriously thinking about it for the boys when they are 4-and im qualified(hopefully) by then and wondering if the possibilitys viable-id rather put my kids through private education and forsake other thing to pay for it-especially as they wouldnt have to board as we have one of the best private schools in the south of england less than 3 miles from my house-Millfield....

Thank you all for the sterilising info.

Diege - I think you are right. Going to try and up another ounce at bedtime. When can Z start having solids btw? Did bring it up with H/V right at the start and she said it's now 6mths, what has everyone else done with the older babies of the thread?

Golden - I agree with you about discuss and debate. Hmmm..now maybe I can follow in the footsteps of Beartime and bring in the 4 wives debate... LOL.

Beartime - Well done for voicing your own beliefs like that - it's not easy, moreso in RL of course, but well done just the same. I could talk on that subject for hours, the only thing that puts me off at times is the fact that I discuss so many personal issues for the whole world to read on MN, often forget this (Nov thread ladies sigh in relief).

Mum is leaving tomorrow so hope I can catch up this week, was good to post a little more with her here.

Talk later x

Busy - Millfield is v.expensive. My friends father used to be headmaster there. Has a very mixed intake too (mixed in terms of ability, not social class). I seem to remember the GCSE & A level results were not that hot???

In London, you can expect to pay between 3 - 4k per term for pre-prep (age 4 - 7) and prep (age 7 - 13 for boys/and age 11 for girls).

Senior schools will cost bewteen 4 - 5k per term.

The fees won't include uniforms (like bloody blazers that they never wear, and football boots that only get used twice a term, and cricket whites that they have grown out of from one season to the next..........), school trips, music tutition, and in some cases lunch. All these are extra.

I know, it sounds huge, but it is cheaper than nanny/nursery costs. And, amazingly 20% of Hackney residents send their children to private schools. I would say that another 20% move to areas with better provision once they have kids. Not so surprising when you see what we have on offer for schools here............

Those that are left are either die hard lefties, prepared to sacrifice their kids education for 'the cause', soft-centre liberals who manipulate the application system and all send their kids to the same one or two schools in a bid to make it exclusive while still pretending to support state education, and the rest of the local population that just don't have a financial choice or expect much anyway.

PS - I'm showing off - twins still going through the night.

Hi ! GOLDEN: didn't mean that we shouldn't get our teeth into debates/gritty stuff on here . Agree, it's good to have controversial stuff aired etc, and one of the (many) things I love about mumsnet is that everyone does have differing views. I suppose I am just a conflict-avoider at heart , and the last thing I would want to do is stifle debate! The nursery thing does touch a nerve I suppose with me, perhaps all the more reason for talking about it .
CHACHA: let's hear the one about the 4 wives then ; re: solids, it's technically 6 months, but varies alot with each baby I think? Bear in mind it was 12 weeks a few years ago, so don't think starting earlier would be a problem?
Well, better go and wake her up or she wonlt settle for lunch-time nap! Sometimes Gina can be a right pain!
Diege (always up for a good debate!) and Liberty.

Really!? How would I find out about their results etc, do they have offsted or is it something different??

This end of the country our schools are better than those in london/bristol etc but still really poor and seeing as myself and dp only left school 6 years ago, its still pretty fresh in our minds and we're quite worried about the whole schooling thing as we want our children to have the best we can afford and I do really believe you get what you pay for.....