Dec 08 - tears, tantrums, giggles and piddles - and that's just the mums!

[traceface]

Or maybe piddling whilst giggling is just me?
It's so sunny here I feel Spring has sprung - where's that daffodil emoticon gone? Had a friend round this morning for a natter and cake - muchos snot and tears but all good. Think I might go for a little bike ride now to blow the cobwebs away.
And no vag - not a chance!
rubs don't you dare spend all your time tweeting - your first loyalty is here!

Congratulations Kiwi, that's such lovely news. I wondered how you were progressing at getting clackered, as going AWOL only popping on to discuss plans to move reminded me of Summer doing the same last year. Work situation sounds crap, I hope your union resolve it. Is it just you, or is everyone (senior managers exempted, of course ) having to go through it?

Veg your body is working so hard at the moment, with BF, all your cycling and the hard work at the gym. Could it be possible that you're eating too little, forcing your body to hang onto those calories for DS' feeds? Your body shape must be changing with all that hard work, could you try measuring inches or body fat or something instead, surely you'll see progress there.

Love the idea of us hanging out together Rubes while our littles roll around on the floor . One of us could stand guard (who has the best disguise, so they are not recognised) while the other fetches wine coffee to fortify us

Waiting and Jump you both have my sympathies with the non sleepers. I can't think of any advice that you won't have already tried, so I am sending a virtual hug. Your continued stomach upset sounds awful Waiting, have you seen a dr? It's surely gone on too long to be just a bug, could there be something disagreeing with you (aside from sleep deprivation)

More good schools news from Invis, would the new school been high on your list if it could have been included? I am quite at the planning and preparation required to get into a primary school, I hadn't thought anything more than post DDs name in at the village school and take her at the start of term, but seems I'll have to consider further afield. She has her name down to start pre school from January, in fact they got their dates mixed up and offered her a place this year! My thoughts were to send her a couple of mornings a week at first and build up each term to full time when she's 5 , but they're starting to run the pre school almost as a nursery, offering childcare from 8am to 5pm at the going nursery rate, so I'm not sure whether to take DD out of nursery on the days I'm at work and just send her to pre school, or mix and match. Decisions, decisions ...

Hurrah for your Polish workmen Arti and completed living room. Any pics of the finished product?

Well done AK on the glowing report, you must be super proud Veg. On DS2 and the pushing, I wonder if it's a 2nd child thing? My sister was always more physical than me and I've seen it with some of my friends, I wonder if littles literally have to throw their weight around to make up for being smaller or less able to communicate, so that's how they get noticed? If it was DD I think I'd go for a stick rather than carrot, like taking a toy away or naughty step, so there is an instant consequence. Plus lots of praise on good days

I think it was LadyT who asked about pensions. I have a pointless one, which at it's current balance will give me around £1.35 a month from age 65 so need something else. DH assures me the farmland is a more than adequate pension as according to him it will only increase in value. But I don't understand how we'll turn that in money to live on without selling it AND let DD or any other children then take on the farm themselves. It's not a big operation, so currently and in the past it has only supported one generation of the family at a time. I think I'll keep paying my minuscule amounts into my own pension, just in case I ever need £2.35 a month!

How is P's speech coming on Trace? As you've not mentioned your concerns recently I've sort of assumed it's picking up, despite the further hearing loss, but I've just thought I might be making it up. I hope she's less wriggly for the tests on the other ear

I hope the packing and move is all going well Jolly and that you get an Internet connection soon and come back to us

I hope B's appt goes well tomorrow Spot, and sorry to hear about T's cold, but excellent he's been snot free for so long

Before I sign off and go to bed, can I gross you all out? This is a TMI alert for those of a sensitive disposition. After we'd had our littles there was some discussion about having, er, crisp packety bits, was I think the phrase we used. Is anyone else still like a crisp packet, or does it improve? It does put a bit of a downer on any impromptu business

Sorry to end on that note ladies. DH is snoring on the sofa, so it's nothing something I need to concern myself with tonight!

kiwi - hurrah for another thread baby :) am delighted for you

dd currently asleep in sling as she was awake a lot of the night, then at 6.30 just as she flipped herself onto her front (wooops) and nodded off, next door's effing 7 year old started playing the piano... oddly it's somehow easier to cope with second time round, plus I have some of this and it's shades weather

musn't grumble really, the sun's out, my brother and his family are here from Canadia so I get to meet my new nephew for the first time, and the flowers in the garden are looking beautiful. will try to catch up properly later, but quickly, phew arti re floorboards, and hurrah for schools news! House with massive garden wasn't a goer, amongst other things it wasn't white but pale pink (!) and had a random petanque pitch halfway down the garden?!!

Congrats Kiwi! Congrats Urbane! Keeping everything crossed for both of you that things progress really well.

Ach...so much I wanted to catch up on and say. I am a zombie! Have been reading along every day (mostly middle of the night...grrr) but hate posting from my phone and never have a chance to sit down otherwise. Both DS's having shock joint nap for the first time ever so here I am!

As I can't figure out where to begin with personals, how about I just do a me me me post instead.

How are things going....hmmmmmmmm....well, the days are mostly going okay. DS2 getting much harder to settle to sleep so much yelling ensues, but once he is asleep in the buggy or sling I can spend some great time with DS1 and we've been doing loads of fun stuff going to the park and various groups and activities. However, there are multiple very very bad points in the day which make me wonder if I (and my marriage) will survive the next 6 months.

I've only done two bedtimes on my own and they have been absolutely horrendous shockers. Last night case in point...DS2 screaming in the sling, not happy anywhere even on boob, trying to get DS1's bath ready, already starting to lose my rag as DS2's screaming 30 cm from my face is eating into my brain, and look around to see DS1 pulling off his pull up nappy which is full of sh&t. Sh*t then smeared all over DS1 and the floor and he proceeds to start running around the house spreading the fecal matter everywhere. One of the lows in my parenting career - I had to chuck DS2 in his hammock bed where he screamed for the entire 15 minutes it took me to clean up DS1's mess. I scared myself by being so aggressively angry with DS1 that I was grabbing him so hard - it was making me insane that he thought it was funny to keep running off spreading poo everywhere. DS2 then went quiet (not sleeping but probably in a traumatised catatonic state) so I was able to finish DS1's bath and do stories, by which point DS2 started kicking off again so I had to get him and cuddle and feed him to make up for abandoning him, so then it was DS1's turn to scream for me from his cot for 15 minutes before he gave up and went to sleep. Lovely calming pre bed routine!

Question...I am freaking out about DS2 and having to leave him screaming for so long at points. The whole cortisol stress and cry-it-out trauma....but after about 5 pm he is not happy even on boob or sling and I can't put DS1 to bed with DS2 screaming in our faces, so I end up having to put him down for 10 minutes. This is really stressing me out. I am hoping that in a matter of weeks DS2 might be in more of a routine that will make bedtime a bit less hellish?? I honestly can't handle the stress of them both screaming. It makes me irrationally angry (from a constant noise point of view) and also I feel badly for them being upset. Luckily I don't have to do too many bedtimes by myself. I don't know how people do it.

DS2 has been majorly fussy this week. He is either sleeping (difficult to get him to this state), feeding (while also writhing and fussing) or yelling. I am choosing to believe the Wonder Weeks book that this is just a fussy week.

Thinking of the others dealing with yelling newborns right now!

Oh my god they're both still asleep....what do I do, what do I do....looking around at tip of a house and piles of laundry but don't know where to begin....

But of course DS2 just started stirring and I can feel my boobs leaking already. Must be time for a feed.

Oh dear mom that sounds like a shocker! My DD went through the 5-7 pm scream and shout, even feeding wouldn't help phase. It is shit, but it did pass, can't remember when exactly, maybe 8 weeks? ARe you at that already? Just think, he won't scream so badly every evening, and hopefully the poo thing won't happen again so it'll be a low point, the only way is up!
I choose to not worry about leaving the little one to scream a bit, and I have also really really shouted at DS for crying/whinging for no big reason at the same time as DD. I do feel guilty but I think we all do it. And I think you are right to be angry about him thinking the poo thing is funny, I would be furious.

I hate hate hate it when they both cry. I had it when starting to wean DD as well as she'd get tired of sitting in the bumbo, but then would be wound up and wouldn't go elsewhere. I also had the "cooking tea, but the toddler wants to hit the baby, so have to hold the baby while cooking" conundrum....

Right I've got to go as must wake up DS from late nap or he'll never sleep tonight.

Oh but of course, I haven't been on to say low key congratulations to urbane and a big hurrah to kiwi. How exciting.

Oh Mom that all sounds so hard and also brings back so many memories. Ive lost count the number of times we were all crying in the bathroom because I'd messed up the timing and both boys were tired and grumpy. Also the anger thing is guilt inducing but you are not alone, I too shock myself with how angry I get and how much I feel I want to hurt DS2. But the thing is you don't, so accept the feelings and don't berat yourself for something you haven't actually done. On the crying and cortisol thing, the cortisol sensitivity was only found in babies who had been left consistently to cry for long periods of a long period of time. So basically put to bed left to cry themselves to sleep every night for like 3 months. So I think 10 mins will be fine.

Thanks for your thoughts ZJ, I think one of my big problems is training with excess weight. When I used to compete I was a good weight so basically just had to eat to replace my training exercise lose. Now I'm training and losing weight so trying to work out a balance is hard. After DS1 I lost the weight easily when I went back to training at around 6months. But I think now I'm older with less mean muscle mass so my base metabolic rate must be lower too. I've decided just to concentrate on training and whatever weightloss is a bonus. I've signed up to a 5km at the end of may to give me an interim goal between now and the tri. I would like to do it in under 30 mins but that is going to mean some serious sprint training.

Oh vag I meant to comment on your weight loss stuff. I think i was in a similar situation to you in that I was used to being able to eat quite a lot while training quite hard and hadn't tried to lose weight for ages. For me I really needed to cut down the food a lot more than I thought to lose weight. Very annoying, I didn't cut out anything completely but I had to watch portion sizes and watch carbs as it is very easy to go "oh I'm having some healthy muesli for breakfast", not weigh it and end up eating 700 cals of breakfast.

So typically I would have muesli and yoghurt for breakfast, a reasonable but not unlimited portion (probably about 400 cals worth), soup with no bread or salad with protein (so smoked fish or tuna or chicken - sorry not much help as veggie, but I find protein filled me up longer, so you could try chickpeas or something i guess??) and then evening meal would be meat or fish with lots of veggies and maybe a small amount of potato or rice, but I watched that. And minimal snacking between but if so only fruit. I still had the odd beer or wine but not loads, and the odd sweet treat but it would be tiny. And no big blowouts like takeaways, meals out would always be a salad or similar.
You may already be doing this in which case I don't know! Maybe you are putting on muscle. I was also doing quite a lot of exercise (probably similar to you), I found this helped but didn't work on its own.

Mom that sounds horrendous, you poor love. One day you'll laugh about it, maybe on DS1s 18th when you get the opportunity to give a speech in front of his friends . Remember our mantra when the Dec 08 babes were this age 'this too shall pass'. In a few weeks time you'll have mastered bedtime, of course then you'll have another phase to deal with . So easy for the mum of one to say though

Good luck with the 5k Veg. If you want to lose weight, I can offer you some light flab and wobble in exchange for your heavy and toned muscle? . I am of the school of Rubes and dedicated to wearing fit flops whilst watching telly

Jump how lovely to be meeting your nephew and for your brother to meet his niece. How old is your nephew?

I have a crazy plan for DD and I to wash my car in the morning, I think it could be a disaster, but it needs doing (I've done it since Oct ) and it's warm enough for us to not worry about getting soaking wet. Although what will the neighbours (the ILs!) think when we strip off on the driveway?!!

Just running on to say congrats to the Kiwi! Is the sickness starting to ease as you leave the first trimester? And sorry your work is being thoughtless, that's not what you need right now. What does DD1 think of impending siblinghood?

MoM, so sorry things are tough. I remember similar, without the poo thankfully. I ESP remember the scary rage. Not nice. I still maintain that the jump from 1 to 2 is harder than 0 to 1. It does get easier though and 10 mins of unsupervised crying here and there will not do DS2 long term damage. If it dud all second burns would be severly impaired.

I get to meet WG's teeny tiny DD2 today as they are coming to get my P&Ts. Weirdly it turns out WG knows my road really well as a school friend lived here. Small world. Hope the mini Waiting doesn't make my broody.

Wld anyone be up for a meet-up next Thurs or Fri?

Quiet on here! Hope I didn't break the thread with another of my poo stories.

I should be able to manage a meet up next week too.

Mom - I think the hellish bed/bathtime thing is so common and that screaming is so disheartening. I've done a lot of screeching at DD1 since DD2 was born. And get horrified by my strength of rage with her at tiny little things. Just generally when she's whinging and crying about nothing, while DD2 is screaming in the background. I used to have endless patience with her and feel so sorry for her now. I found having a very strong bedtime routine really helped, but it took weeks for it to get easier. literally I think when DD2 was about 8-10 weeks or something. It was misery. But the more you do it, the easier it will get. I don't blame you for being cross with the poo business. I'd have been the same!

Both of the girls have conjunctivitis at the moment. It's horrible. But they don't seem to be in too much pain. Both exhausted so am about to put them in bed. Does mean they don't like the sun much, which is a bugger in this weather!

Watched DH do a triathlon in Sevenoaks today. Was v nice, although we had to get up at 5.45am. ouch. Both DDs then had a sleep at lunchtime, which is good as DD1 has mostly given hers up now. I managed half an hour in the sun as well. Marvellous.

DH has gone to Serbia for 3 days. Am going to miss him terribly, but he had to go with work. Dad's op on Tuesday and am going out for dinner with him and Mum tomorrow night to sort of wish him well. A friend is babysitting. Dad keeps calling it the last supper, just in case, sort of thing. Find it a bit depressing. Both my sisters are on holiday, so not in the country, so off I go! Anyway, it'll be lovely to spend the evening with him and Mum. Just must keep upbeat and positive! And get him a card for luck!

Kiwi - massive congrats - that is lovely news. And Urbane - quietly delighted and thinking of you.

Must go and put littlest to bed now. Both exhausted due to early start, despite their sleeps.

Vag - don't worry about the losing weight thing. I don't really know much about it, but that you look fantastic. It is frustrating, but you'll get there.

Sybs - are you ok? Quiet for a while.

I have only skimmed, craply, I apologise.

How gorgeous is it today! I always assume that you are all having the same weather as me as we are only just over the way from you all. It was supposedly only 16 but it was gorgeous and sunny and felt more like 20. We went for a ride out to a little farm, play ground and pancake house out in the middle of the sand dunes. DH and the boys enjoyed the playground while I went for a long run on the sand dunes path that winds along past lots of gorgeous natural dunes, forest and wetlands. Then we had lunch and took the boys for a wander in the surrounding bushland which had great little water ways for them to muddle around in gazing at dragon flies and all sorts of wrigglies, and lots of brilliant trees for climbing. It was as close to the bushland we used to play in as kids as we are ever going to get. I could not believe I was in the Netherlands, it felt so much like home. Well except for the Pannekoeken Huis in the middle of it with lots of grey dutch hikers with their funny walking stick things sunning themselves after their mornings wandelings.

SL funny you say that about the muesli, I just discovered the local supermarket sells a flavour of dorset muesli (only brand I like, everything else hurts my jaw). So I can start weighing my breaky, I find it much more satisfying without going too high fat and sugar than anything else. I.might follow you and have it with low fat yogurt.

mom- just wanted to pass on my absolute sympathy, i could very easily have written that post and as wsith many others, am quite scared by the anger that can come out when a lot of the time I feel very calm. eg night times when she just won't sleep, or when S is being unbearable. so you are in no way alone!

MoM - sorry its been grim, but it does get (a lot) better. That poo story, horrific though it is, will have you all laughing in years to come.

Kiwi - congrats on the important stuff. On the other, mate of mine had very good experiences with your union sorting stuff, really home they do the same for you.

I know there has been meet up talk. Sadly I don't have any actual holiday over easter, but we don't have any big plans for the public holidays, so if anyone is in London and fancies meeting, I'd be game.

I feel very dull and repetitive when I post on here lately - it seems to mostly be a combo of knackered, hard at work and ill children. I'm afraid today is no different so I may leave off.

Mom and JJ. Me, too. I can get so furious with madam and I think I'm in control but actually I'm so not. I have really scared myself by how much I take out my fury on her. And there is a lot of shouting going on in this house-not nice.

The ewok (or missy as we also call her) appears to be textbook colicky. At 6pm she starts screaming, tends to then enjoy her bath, then screams carry on and off with feeding until 10, 11, 12 o'clock. I hadn't been trying to settle her in her basket upstairs because I did 't want her to wake madam, soo she's downstairs with us. I tried this eve with White noise, miracle blanket, dark quiet roomwhile madam was being bathed but after 1.5 hours I gave up. I'm convinced we had madam going to bed at 8pm by 6 weeks, whereas this one is basically up until midnight. And she's now stopped taking a bottle. Ugh.

Met the artichoke family yesterday as I reached crunch point and realised we did need a double buggy. So weird, turns out we have loads of ppl in common and mr arti and I have led weird parallel lives. Dh had also played mr arti in a cricket match! And their house is amazing. And their dds are gorgeous.

Waiting to see if doctor has any results from the investigations into this chronic diarrhoea from which I am STILL suffering. It is so demoralising. Not to mention vile, gross, and makes me feel so weak. Ugh ugh ugh.

WG: well done on getting to the doc. Hope he can get you sorted out.

I can also put my hand up to being a shouty mum, though DS1 gets the brunt of it. He has taken to ordering us all about, me included, and it gets my goat. Mom: leaving DS2 for the odd 10 or 15 mins is not going to damage him, however rubbish it makes you feel. Could you shift bathtime to the morning for a bit if it's not manageable? This will pass, honest :).

We've been enjoying the sunshine - it seems so much easier when the boys can happily play out in the garden. DS1 is looking a bit pale and baggy eyed recently though. I know a few of you have gone through similar - is it worth taking him to the doc? He's ok in himself, just tiring easily and (tmi alert!) poos are a bit pale and slimy. I think I'll grab some multivits to see if they help. He's refusing to eat veggies at the mo which can't help.

WG - good luck on the results. When do you find out? Let us know.

And Mom - also meant to add that leaving the baby to cry for 10-15 mins while you sort out DS1 is ok. I second what Effie says. It's stressful, but you just have to block it out for however long it takes you to get things done! You'll be ok, promise.

x

Good morning all. Hope you all had a lovely weekend. Work thing is still getting to me, but am trying not to think about it too much as it does my head in. IN the meantime, I have some advice to ask.

A dear friend of mine is, I have just discovered, having a truly awful time. Her very little baby fell off bed, was unlucky enough to land just wrongly and fractured her skull. Now, baby is absolutely fine, no long term damage, but friend and her husband have been under constant supervision by social services. It frankly beggars belief that they can not look at these lovely people and see within 2 minutes that it was a horrible accident and that they are great, lovely parents, but no. Anyway, my question is, I'd really like to send her a present, just to say I'm thinking of her, but what? Flowers seem a bit wrong somehow, maybe something to eat? Thought you guys might have some good ideas.

Hello girls

My, how the time flies, I haven't been on for a few days. Thursday I was out with my FIL but the rest of the time I have been doing stuff at the house (excluding Saturday night when we were staying with one of DP's lovely schoolfriends in Hampshire)...so I am a bit tired with doing that and keeping the show on the road with the girls etc. Also, DP is doing what could be a quite a high profile case today (well, in that it might make the broadsheets or possibly sneak on to the news if it's a 'quiet' news day) as it involves a politician and someone threatening to do bad things to him...Anyway, whenever he is under the cosh at work it sort of spills over into our homelife.

This weather has been so cheering. I read that it was going off today but I hope that isn't the case. Arti, you mentioned a meet up on Thurs or Fri - as it happens I am in London on those two days, but it's a bit of a packed schedule as I have lunches on both days. However, Thursday might be a quickie so could possibly come to RFH after lunch if anyone's interested? Saturday's my birthday and I am going off to Mum's for a few days then.

Spot, did you have your appt on Friday? How did it go? Any more thoughts on the endoscopy? And is T better?

Mom, that poo episode sounds truly hideous. Anyone would be fuming. And the sheer stress of two tiny children bellowing at once always causes my blood pressure to skyrocket (and I have low blood pressure). I can only say, and also to WG and JJ too, the rather limp 'it does get better'. But no comfort when you are living through those utterly gruelling first few weeks/months I know.

Beans - fingers crossed for your Dad's surgery tomorrow. Speaking of medical matters, any news on your results, WG?

Arti, how is the house going? What are your immediate plans for it? Once we are in the house, we then have to get DP's flat into good shape for renting (mind you, that's only really a case of decorating) and then the same for my flat (which probably needs a bit more than decoration) so the DIY is going to be the theme for some months yet Our friends who were going to help us move are going on hols, so if they are back I am reckoning that second Bank Holiday weekend could be the one...DP is going to do some more tiling and stuff before then. I wish he would crack on but he is too busy, and he is good at tiling and I can't do it. But there's plenty of other stuff for me to do...

Right, this place is a tip. Must press on!

X-posted Kiwi. Oh heavens, what an awful story Well, M&S do some nice outdoor pots/plants - eg a lavender tree. Might be a change from flowers. However, I suppose I would probably send a nice bottle of wine or two (nothing celebratory, like champs, of course) or possibly a nice basket of treaty bath goodies, something relaxing like that. Poor people.

Have you got better weather than us, Vag?

And WHERE is Rubes?

Oh yeah - I had something to ask too. DD2 has eczema on both sides of her face. Have tried Oilatum cream for Babies but it seemed to make it worse. Would love any tips from those with eczema-y babes. I know the doc can't really prescribe anything at that age, esp for face.

Kiwi I'm sorry about your friends but in defence of the services involved (mainly the HPs who referred it not SS, they're smelly) they are under a lot of pressure to investigate and refer on any accidental injuries in kids due to all the baby P stuff etc. I have to admit that in my day that would have just warranted a visit from the HV and a chat on risk of leaving baby etc etc. But both the children's health services and SS have gotten several bollockings in the last several years due to these extreme cases (baby P, Victoria climbie). Nowadays something like this will immediately require a professionals case conference and from there the statutory SS involvement. I'm really sorry that is happening in what is clearly an unnecessary case. But it seems those on high have decided they would rather be wrong about investigating innocent families than not investigate and let a child suffer. Trace can probably tell you more about recent child protection stuff as I'm a bit out of the game, but I know it has definitely ramped up. Can I ask which borough they live in, if its a north London borough it makes a big difference.

Lady: DS2 has eczema on his face too. Oilatum rubbish, what we use is Cetraben (you can get on presc and over the counter). You can also get mild steroids that are ok for the face, they might zap the problem then you can keep on top of things with the emollient.

Veg no it's not in London. I can totally understand the need to refer to the social services, but they have now been under constant supervision, not allowed to be alone with their baby, for THREE AND A HALF WEEKS. The social worker keeps telling my friend things like "you shouldn't read baby books" and "you shouldn't take her to the park" (eh?) and "you shouldn't get dressed in the morning".

WHAT?!? WTF, constant supervision! I'm sorry that sounds really strange. we didn't even have constant supervision for kids who were on the register for actual physical abuse, when one of the parent had been identified as the abuser. I think your friends might want to get themselves a lawyer. Get them to also write down with a date and time any unusual things that the social worker says. Have they been given a timetable for what is going to happen? Like reduction in supervision if nothing untoward happens. This seems like a colossal waste of social services time and a complete knock to any confidence your friend may have built up in her mothering abilities. I think you def need to send her some flowers and a card with a message that conveys that you think she is a good mother and this is a load of bollocks. Wow I soooo wish I was the HP at that case conference, I would be going balmy at the SS.