lefties 7:compare the tory.com

[HerHonesty]

sorry couldnt think of anything else. gideon in charge of the economy..

There is some better debate around the boards at the moment don't you think, less Tory bias coming out, jsut debate about whats happening.

Can I ask about VAT ? Didn't trade increase at the VAT decrease? So would it go the other way for an increase?

And why is £50K seen as the 'divide' between rich & poor?

Onebat - I am with you on the public sector feelings.

The one time I did work in public sector it was a complete piece of piss, the easiest job in the world. I cannot help feel chagrined when a poster complains about public sector overwork. I often feel like posting 'you need to get in the real world', private sector jobs are often very over worked, lots of unpaid hours, crappy T&Cs, shit pension provision etc. So yes I am reather resentful.

I do recognise that there are many sectors of public sector work which are abominable. However I cannot compare it with specific government agencies (moD for instance) where I know many people who do the same job as me get paid a fortune, brilliant pension, fixed 35 hr week with no overtime requirement etc. And it does make me bitter.

thanks for that pol, that's exactly what I was after

one interpretation of events from the Graun

alternative Graun POV for balance; interesting discussion in the comments underneath.

Yes there would have to be legislation Len.

Thanks pol.
Like Lenin I'm struggling - what has previously happened if a govt failed a VONC? minority govt/opposition gets a chance? Or an election?

And crucially, what won't parliament be able to do that they can currently do?

God...have got to get over this Guardian thing and start buying a paper again. I am lost without it

...tho I am a slightly nicer parent...I have not once said "what?" in a Harsh Manner since I stopped reading paper at lunchtime

Yes, that's true. But at least this change would mean that the executive would lose control over timings wrt unforeseen situations or things they can't fully control, eg recessions.

It also means that all the parties are working to the same timetable, so opposition parties can plan for elections on the same basis as the government, rather than having to second-guess when an election will be.

OBM - an election, usually. Has happened twice since WWII I think. This is the main power that Parl would lose I think, and it's a marginal one: firstly because Parl can still force an election, just by a slightly higher threshold (55% rather than 51%); and secondly because most fixed-term deals have an inbuilt pressure-relief valve that an election will be called if nobody has been able to form a government within 28 days of a lost VONC. Don't think it has yet become clear whether this safety valve will be in the proposed legislation.

But isn't the slightly higher threshold crucially the 4% which the coalition could defeat on a whip?

SHJ, why did you stop buying a paper? Sorry if you've said but was there a particular thing where the Guardian made you cross?

elkie it was more of a pre-election flounce- me and dp got hysterically pissed off at the Guardian's editorial telling us why we should vote Lib Dem. Where we live, we've had a LD/Tory council for the last few years which is Tory to the bone (now gone- thank fuck)

we're of the knee jerk mindset that LDs + power= Tories. And we'd gone all tribal Labour before the election (having had nothing good to say about Nu Lab since about- ooh- 1997)

now I am slightly ashamed. And ill informed

Thanks for that policywonk - I know very little about this really despite having learnt about it at school in Modern Studies.

I'm not too sure how a feel about the fixed term thing yet. I suspect I would feel better if we had actual PR rather than a fixed term coalition government as a result of a hung parliment as a result of a FPTP election IYSWIM.

Right off to read recent posts.

I suppose (haven't done the maths) that, say, the Cons alone could reach the 46% mark and thus prevent a dissolution. But they would then be in the position of either trying to govern with a minority, in which case they'd get very little through without the support of other parties, or of having to hand over to the opposition, or (if the provision is there) of an election being called within 28 days.

I'm not going anywhere. I haven't been anywhere for the last 10 or so days and I'm settled here.

Agree with OBM , MmeLindt and Getorf re these threads....if I can't be an out and out lefty and criticise what I consider a huge sellout by NC for his 15 minutes (and I sooooo hope with a bitterness that surprises even me it is only 15 minutes) of fame, then where can I? Lib voters that I know in real life, whilst still supporting lib-dem ideals are still a bit shell-shocked about what has happened, so I'll be buggered if I'm going to pretend that I'm not, and to wish them well. I don't.

But nor am I going to go crashing onto Tory or Lib support threads and start ranting about how unfair life is. I've posted on a few (very few) general politic topics this week, but felt cosy enough here to stay here in the main.

I've learnt so much also in the past couple of weeks (even though the economic stuff has my tongue lolling out and I have to put my finger on each word to say it out loud before I understand- as my mother and the HSBC bank will confirm, money is just not my thing) I am in desperate need of sandals but have bought some £4 plimsolls instead so I can have hoooooge book order (to which I have just added Animula's suggestion - thankyou!) and I kind of feel more justified about MNing because I'm talking about stuff that matters instead of dipping in and out of stuff aimlessly.

HIGNFY has pissed me off for a while tbh. Whilst accepting that at times the main participants are brilliant, IH's smuggery about , well, everything, just grates. Prefer MTW as long as Frankie keeps his muzzle on and Russell Howard doesn't do those naff impressions. (t'is probably because I have a secret crush on Dara - for his mind you understand, I'd probably have to shut my eyes for his body)

Is Beenbeta Abetadad then?

am a bit ignorant am afraid, under what circumstances would parliament be dissolved as opposed to there being a VOTC? is it up to the party in power to initiate the dissolution process?

It's important to remember, in all this, that as things stand VONCs (and therefore dissolution) can only be achieved if some governing party MPs vote with the opposition. So a new system that would also require governing party/coalition MPs to vote with the opposition is not a significant change IMO. Think Blunkett especially is being dishonest on this point.

SHJ, I was wondering if that was what it was. I can sympathise. Your recently overthrown Council sounds very like the situation where I work, as well as other councils where Tories and Lib Dems have worked very well in coalition. And the Lib Dems were the largest party here, but even then the Tory tail wagged the dog.

Re the 55% dissolution threshold, I was very unnerved by that at first as it seemed like shameless gerrymandering, but when I realised that there is still scope for VONC remaining an effective device I felt less nervous.

Trouble is, though, if VONC is conceived as a device which brings a govt to an end, but without requiring a dissolution, how will that consequence be operationalised, exactly? Very reassured by policywonks referral in that context to possible 'safety valve' of dissolution after 28 days following VONC if existing govt or newly refigured govt can't command a majority (say by winning a second confidence vote).

But what confidence can we have that such a safety valve will be included?

There is a difficulty that reforms of parliament will be additions to a non-formalised, unwritten, constitution (with instruments like VONC that haven't really been used recently and therefore don't have very tight contemporary definition.

Unless we have total new written const, there is a real danger of piecemeal additions being gerrymandered to favour the executive.