Europhobe or Europhile?

[MrIC]

I've been a Europhile since I was a teenager and really like the "idea" of the EU (admittedly the reality can sometimes be annoying). I'm British, born in Britain to British parents, and I currently live in Spain - I've also visited 16 other EU countries.

I love the fact that I have the right to live and work anywhere in the EU, that I don't need a visa, and that I can get healthcare should I need it. I believe that the EU has played a major role in developing Europe's (and by extension Britian's) economy and improving the quality of life of 100s of millions of people.

I'd really like to hear from Europhobe's who have a genuine, rational objection to the EU and their reasons.

there seems to be two different debates about immigration going on here.

one is about the failure of non-EU immigrants to integrate into British society. I think somebody raised the point about British Muslims wanting Sharia law and objecting to Christian imagery? Fine, but start another thread as it has nothing to do with the EU as they are mostly immigrants (or the descendants of immigrants) from outside the EU. so it really is irrelevant to the topic...

the second debate - which is relevant - is about freedom of movement and the right to work within the EU. There's generally two types of migrant within the EU.
a) wealthy retirees from the UK, Germany, and the Benelux countries who move to France and Spain, buy property, fail to integrate (for the most part) and don't really contribute to their new country of residence.
b) Young professionals/skilled workers moving east-to-west to take advantage of better pay and conditions. they generally work legally and as such pay taxes and NI thus contributing to the country they are in. they also rent property and so don't adversely affect the local housing markets. most intend to return home eventually, and in the recent economic climate 1,000s already have.

Given the above (which is admittedly a gross over-simplification but the basis pattern is accurate) I always find it a bit rich that it's the British who bitch the most about EU immigration...

The Irish love it so much they had to be made to vote twice for Lisbon. Mmmmm.

The EU is flawed at EVERY level imo, especially with regards to the costs. Why does it need 3 places of work? There is enough room in Brussels for it all to be centralised.

agreed the EU is flawed as it is...but so is Westminster, so what's your point?

I agree that it doesn't need to be so spread around, and I'd love to have a genuinely democratic EU. But then I'd also love to have a genuinely democratic House of Lords and an elected Head of State...

'one is about the failure of non-EU immigrants to integrate into British society. I think somebody raised the point about British Muslims wanting Sharia law and objecting to Christian imagery? Fine, but start another thread as it has nothing to do with the EU as they are mostly immigrants (or the descendants of immigrants) from outside the EU. so it really is irrelevant to the topic...'

But it DOES have to do with the EU and will have even more if Turkey accedes. It is not just a UK problem either - it is becoming a huge problem in Brussels for instance. In one area of the city that is predominantly Muslim the Belgian Police have been told not to eat or drink during Ramadan as it will cause offence. In the UK there are many British born Muslims, they are EU citizens.

I would argue also about those who migrate from east to west working legally. There is a massive black economy in Belgium, and it is mainly those from Eastern Europe involved in it.

Do Muslims have to be brought into everything?

We're really not that exciting.

Scaryteacher, your comments are straight from the Daily Mail. Bring your proof before making such wild (and boring statements).

Oh, and Turkey is SECULAR. eyeroll

It really bother me that people think you can make up whatever lies they want about Muslims and not be challenged.

Anyway, I'm pro-EU, as I believe we can achieve far more together and I'm a bit of an internationalist at heart.

My comments are actually straight from Brussels as I live there, and I don't read the Mail.

Turkey is secular on the surface; but not underneath (eyeroll as well). I have Turkish friends here who are are very western in Brussels, but who wear hijab when they go back to Turkey, because they feel they have to, and they tell me that life in Turkey isn't as westernised and secular as some would have us believe. Is that enough proof - I was having this conversation with them last Monday.

I fail to see how articulating concerns about the lack of integration within communities in major European cities is lying. There are areas within Brussels where we are actively discouraged from living because of this.

The point about immigration, both within the EU and outside, is that the UK has a finite amount of space. The infrastructure is not set up to cope with the huge influx that has occurred. There are not enough school places and there is a strain on health resources.

I am anti Federalism - I do not want a United States of Europe; I do not want a single foreign policy, or economic policy being dictated by Brussels. I do not want laws from Brussels over riding the Common law of the UK. I have no problem with the idea of a loose federation of trading states, but no more than that.

OK the point about Turkey is valid - personal I think Turkey should be allowed to join as it will help strengthen secularists in Turkey and promote human rights there. But your point about there being Muslim (or other) minorities within the EU is still irrelevant.

Those communities aren't there because of the EU; apart from a few small Muslim communities in Bulgaria and Cyprus there are no indigenous Muslims in any of the EU member states. They exist because of the past imperial policies of the various EU member states.

I hope that as internal migration within the EU becomes more commonplace this fear of the "other" will gradually dissipate...

PS: are those working in the Black Economy in Brussels from EU states or from other non-EU European States?
Plus, who are the customers of the Black Economy? are they, per chance, Belgians?

well here in Lincolnshire the black economy consists largely of Poles, Iraqis and Romanians, who do all the land jobs that the locals used to do. They work illegally for Gangmasters (who themselves are usually travellers from round Boston or Newark) so no one pays any income tax, NI or VAT, the illegal immigrants are paid below minimum wage (and I mean well below), all the locals have lost there seasonal jobs and the only people who make a packet are the gangmasters. You frequently see raids of field gangs by Police, Immigration, Tax and DWP officers.

Another fine spinoff of joining the EU..........

The black economy in Brussels is mainly the Poles, the Romanians, some Bulgarians. Customers of the black economy are Belgians, Brits, Latvians, anyone who employs one of the Eastern Europeans as cleaners/builders etc (my cleaning lady is legit however).

You do see several of the Romanians/Albanians outside the shops begging and looking dressed in cheap clothing. If you wait long enough, they will be picked up in a large car and driven to their next pitch.

Having said that, the Romanians and Albanians ahve created there own industry, trafficking east european girls to stock there brothels with. And ofc ,the begging and pickpocketing trades in London have been entirely taken over by them. And you trip over albanian female beggars with there fake sob stories every few yards at the Eurostar terminal, and there not averse to using kids to thieve and beg. OFC, they know there rights, and they just pretend they suddenly cant speak English when the cops pick them up.

Its exactly as predicted when we found out Albania and Romania were joining the EU.

Ok linctash so the problem is unscrupulous gangmasters and the retailers that buy produce from them without questioning where it's come from. The problem isn't the fault of the immigrants who are being exploited; they're just trying to make a living.

oh and if you think this kind of thing didn't exist before the EU and would be solved by withdrawing from it then you are really naive - in fact it would probably make things worse...

Ok linctash so the problem is unscrupulous gangmasters and the retailers that buy produce from them without questioning where it's come from. The problem isn't the fault of the immigrants who are being exploited; they're just trying to make a living.

oh and if you think this kind of thing didn't exist before the EU and would be solved by withdrawing from it then you are really naive - in fact it would probably make things worse...

==============================

Umm the problem exists because Labour threw the borders open and the EU gave 600 million people the right to just walk in. If we wernt in the EU, we could close and monitor our borders better, we could set tight limits on who comes here, and we could throw out all the illegal immigrants without having to piss about with 'appeals' and crap like that, like almost every other non-EU country does.

The presence of 3 million immigrants here is the joint fault of Nu Labour and the EU, without any doubt.

Oh look, the EU wants to remove the name 'The English Channel' and call it 'The Anglo French Pond'. And to add insult to injury, were having to pay for it.

More evidence the EU intends to destroy our national identity, and erase the english from Europe.

here

linc, nobody outside England calls it the english channel...

Perhaps you dont realise to what extent britain is already a fortress compared to the rest of europe. You drive across the continent without showing your passport, and suddenly you're at dover, with mirrors under your car, searches, illegal immigrant checks, and if you arrive on the coaches with the poor people, being yelled at as though you were scum by the immigration officers. And you want to strengthen this paranoia even more?
Your posts read like something out of the seventies - do you really think it's practical to sit in Britain, pulling up the drawbridge and shutting the rest of the world out? Do you even think it's moral, considering how the british people benefit from cheap goods manufactured in the countries of origin of these immigrants that you dislike so much?

There is already controlled immigration - the government made policies that allowed certain people to be able to settle in the UK, and that's got nothing to do with the EU, they had the right, iirc, to set policies on this, because france was not so welcoming to Poles, for example (as far as I remember). Blaming new labour is also a bit silly, because the policy of attracting waves of immigrants has been going for at least the last 100 years or so.

Your problem of the gangmasters could be solved overnight if the "illegal" immigrants were made legal, and given temporary seasonal work permits, and encouraged to apply for those jobs, eg by newspaper ads in Romania,so that there was no need for a gangmaster to find them the jobs. Bingo, no more illegal gangs. Oh, the price of veg might rise. Tough decision, eh?

Linctash - the UK is not part of the Schengen zone and the borders are not open, but monitored, you can't just walk in.

excellent post nighbynight linctash, as nighbynight says, the policy of attracting immigrants has been in place for centuries - cheap Irish labour in the 18th & 19th centuries, the Windrush and Carribbean immigrants in the '50's and so on. It has nothing to do with the EU, and in fact the EU is helping the situation by helping to legalise the position of immigrants and thus making them less vulnerable to unscrupulous (and usually British) gangmasters and sweatshop owners that were previously exploiting them.

Plus, you are ignoring the flip side of the fact that 500 million Europeans now have the right to work in the UK. It's that 60 million Britons have the same right to work in Europe. Might not mean anything to you, but hundred of thousands of Britons certainly appreciate it. I'm one!!

'suddenly you're at dover, with mirrors under your car, searches, illegal immigrant checks,'

I go through Dover several times a year and have never had this going out of the UK from Dover, or coming in to Dover. I have seen it happen at Dunkirk however, as the problem of immigrants trying to get into vehicles to come across isn't just restricted to Calais.

Mirrors under your car - fair enough, depending upon what the current security level is. When I was a kid the family car was regularly stopped at the gates to the RN establishment my Dad worked at and we lived in and the Gatekeeper would search under the car with a mirror. I have it done regularly in Brussels when I go to the Doc or the Dentist. I'd far rather a mirror under the car than a bomb blowing me to perdition.

We get checked pretty much every time we go through Hull/Rotterdam.

we've been stopped twice at Dover in 4 years leaving the UK, and both times, when it was explained dh is UK military we were waved on.

We've had the boot checked a couple of times at Dunkirk coming back, but that was just after illegal immigrants were found in the container bringing Blair's new car back to UK, so that is perhaps understandable! Nothing to do with my wholesale importing of chocolate!

@nightbynight

You really havent clicked onto the gangmaster problem have you? The whoel point is they employ them BECUSE they are illegal, they pay then peanuts (and i mean peanuts, like £10 a day), and then charge them for lodgings (which is usually 10 to a room in some dump). The gangmaster done WANT hem here legally, the fact there illegal gives them power and control over the illegals, and means they have no protection from the law, so the gangmaster can do what they like.

The gandmasters, the farmers, and trhe supermarkets like it the way it is. The only people who lose out are the localsd, who have lost there jobs to the illegals, and the inland revenue.

Apart from that, the destruction of the seasonal jobs has created a massive problem in rural farming areas because those jobs were usually done by women with kids as pin money or school leavers to get experience.

Apart from that, you still dont get it. There here ILLEGALLY!! Why should we cancel the rules for them? why cant the obey the same immigration rules that everyone else does? Once you start throwing your hand in making them legal JUST because they managed to evade the authorities, then you just might as well abandon all border security. Allowing them to stay when there illegal is like paying ransom to kidnappers, once the word gets round you become a major target for them.

There ILLEGAL!! THROW THEM OUT and mark there paperwork PERSONA NON GRATA!!!

lincstash I disagree with you wholeheartedly.

Don't target the immigrants (who are being exploited) target the gangmasters, the farmers and the supermarkets who benefit. They are the ones perpetuating the system!!

but this is all beside the point. Illegal immigration has - and has been stated many, many times - nothing to do with the EU. It existed before the EU, it exists now despite the fact that the UK isn't in the Schegen agreement and will always exist while there are consumers who care more about the price of produce than the working conditions of those who produced it.

Trying to get the thread back on topic... several posters have complained about Van Rompuy being a Federalist. Can somebody articulate to me why that is a bad thing? To me Federalism suggests an equally balanced system, protecting minorities and working towards a consensus while allowing individual states control over certain social aspects and budgets (a la Swiss canton or Canadian provinces) No doubt I'm being naive here in some posters' eyes, but wouldn't such a Federal structure go some way to alleviating the perceived Franco-German domination of the EU?

PS: Albania isn't in the EU

"Illegal immigration has - and has been stated many, many times - nothing to do with the EU"

Oh yes it hase. Because theres no internal border checks, the illegals gain entry via places on the fringes such as morocco or eastern turkey. They then travel unimpeded across the EU till the errive at France, where they set up camp and attack our shores.

For a start, they are supposed to see k asylum at the point they land, but they dont want to, because all the otehr Eu coutnries are a lot togher and stricter - they head to the UK to milk the cash cow.

Then you get the complicity of the French in doing nothing about the invaders massing on the french coast, and just hoping they manage to get over here , and then there not the French's problem any more.

The EU and its lack of borders, and the failure of the French to do its legal duty, has made illegal immigration a doddle.

And, btw, thats another reason not to be in the EU - foreigners, and this is a classic case, look after there own countries and screw us. The French behave appallingly in this respect, and cant be trusted to be honorable or even simply legal. The French will stab us in the back whenever they can, and do, frequently. Need i mention there illegal ban on our beef after the BSE crisis, as a classic example?

I was debating this issue with a work colleague the other day, and was quite baffled by his emphasis on english national identity, national culture and so on.

Baffled because, although I was born and bred here, the fact that I am English is not particularly notable to me - I don't spend any more time reflecting on it than I do thinking about the fact that I am female or have brown hair. I couldn't honestly say I feel proud to be english, but then neither do I feel ashamed or embarrassed about it. Surely it's just an accident of history that I was born here, rather than in Germany or Romania or Iraq. And I can't see anything that makes a country- any country- more than the sum of its parts, or imbues people born on its soil with a particular 'identity'.

I have lived in France and have travelled lots in my work for a multi-national company, and my conclusion is this- people are not 'Brits' or 'Germans' or 'Iraqis'- they are people. Just as being born in England doesn't automatically give you a sense of fair play and a great line in wit, neither does being French make you a protectionist opportunist, or being an Iraqi make you a religious fanatic.

By all means we should rail against corrupt institutions and inefficient bureaucracy (both in Europe and good old England), but the 'them and us' mentality obscures the real issues.