Europhobe or Europhile?

[MrIC]

I've been a Europhile since I was a teenager and really like the "idea" of the EU (admittedly the reality can sometimes be annoying). I'm British, born in Britain to British parents, and I currently live in Spain - I've also visited 16 other EU countries.

I love the fact that I have the right to live and work anywhere in the EU, that I don't need a visa, and that I can get healthcare should I need it. I believe that the EU has played a major role in developing Europe's (and by extension Britian's) economy and improving the quality of life of 100s of millions of people.

I'd really like to hear from Europhobe's who have a genuine, rational objection to the EU and their reasons.

Good article MrIC.

'Which I why I'd like it to be more democratic, less unwieldy and more efficient - which is only going to happen if people engage with it rather than trying to pretend it doesn't exist.'

In your dreams sunbeam. None of that is going to happen. All the Eurocrats are intent on grabbing their own piece of the pie and enlarging their own sphere of influence. One can't engage with the EU as it is doesn't want to people to do that. When Ireland voted no to Lisbon (thus showing what extent of engagement they wanted with the EU), were they listened to? No, another referendum was held and would be until the Irish came up with 'yes'. The EU does NOT want to engage with the people, it wants us to roll over and play dead whilst it rolls on to greater enlargement.

'Oh and since you bring up the UN, given the choice between a nation of 60 million holding one of five permanent posts on the UN security council, and a Federation representing 500 million people, which do you think is fairer?' So kick France off the Security Council then - or do they count for more than the UK? I do NOT want to be represented in the UN by a person that does not know what she is doing (Cathy Ashton) or by someone that does not have the interests of the UK at heart. The EU is not, and never has been, about 'fair'. It is a Franco-German alliance.

I seem to remember we gave up our rebate for reform of the CAP - but the French are refusing to allow that to happen - Sarko will not play ball as he promised.

Why does the Euro mean you have to change money? We have a sterling account and a Euro account. We use the appropriate one for the country we are in. Pas de problem.

"Oh, and linctash the benefit of immigrants to the UK economy is that they are going to end up paying your pension - and probably mine (if pensions still exist by then).
"

Complete fallacy.

The 3 million we let in will be drawing pensions the same as we are, they wont be paying for our pensions, our kids will be paying for there pensions.

Furthermore, to pick up another point, the EU, now it has a Foreign Minister, and the Lisbon Treaty, can replace US on the UN Security Council any time it likes. That is to say, we get booted off, and have no further say in the matter, or the UN.

Fucking outrageous.

Baroness Ashton.

I think Lincstash & others have gone through most of the points (having finally mentioned corruption - was worried that this might have been forgotten).

But Baroness Ashton.

It's just humiliating for us isn't it?

The scary thing about Baroness Ashton is she has a sister, and Baroness Ashton is the one with the brains.

On the other hand, she so incompetent and lacking in common sense and general wherewithall she blends in perfectly with all the other useless corrupt thievin no marks leeching off the EU in Brussels.

And fair do's, she'd never get a job in the real world, she wouldn't last five minutes.

Those I know who have heard her speak were underwhelmed.

Good heavens - neither!

oh, I thought this was a baby names thread..

I am a phile of doing things at the most appropriate level - which is very very often local rather than national, and is also very often at EU level, sometimes global level. We need to put effort into ensuring institutions at all those levels are democratic. I'm not denying there's a shedload of work to be done in that respect at EU level - in part because, as Bonsoir says, they're still immature.

What I might happen to think of Germany is no more here or there than what I might think of Yorkshire as a Lancashire person.

And as MrIC says, personal sovereignty is the most important.

Nah, the conclusion is we dump the EU while we still have control of our country and the english nation still exists, because if the Eu gets its way, neither of those will be true in 30 years time.

Labour's big failure is they have contempt for history, whereas in reality the lessons of history are the most important you can learn. And history tells us not to get entangled with the Europeans, because they are untrustworthy.

The EU is just Germany's third attempt at world domination. They tried doing it the military way twice, now there trying another strategy.

As a job-stealing immigrant myself who had an appendectomy and a caesarean courtesy of the NHS, I'm glad that there is the EU, as it made the decision to leave my home, family and friends behind in order to be with the man I love a little bit easier. If I had had to pay thousands of pounds in order to get leave to remain, work permit etc, I might not have made that step.

Meanwhile, I pay the same taxes as everyone else, so I don't see why I should be less entitled than anyone who just happened to be born here, without having the guts to go somewhere and make their living.

Linctash - I wonder whether you are really that thick or whether you are deliberately trolling.

Widow - we are talking about the endemic corruption at the heart of the EU and the fact that it wastes money and is unaccountable to those who pay for it; not the fact that those who are EU citizens have the right to settle in other EU countries.

I don't think Lincstash is thick - she is just expressing an opinion on the institutions and functions of the EU. I share many of her reservations.

scaryteacher - she's not talking about endemic corruption but is spouting anti-immigrant nonsense, as well as anti-German cliches, which seem to have be lifted directly from the Daily Express.

She has been talking about the ratchet clauses in the Lisbon treaty; the fact that Marta Andreason was sacked by Kinnock for querying the accounts; van Rompuy's federalism, and the corruption and waste of money that is there.

I don't see that querying the amount of people that are allowed into a finite geographical space is anti-immigrant, but a legitimate enquiry as to how it impacts on an infrastructure that wasn't designed to cope with it. If Turkey is allowed to accede to the EU, then that will get worse. The other problem is with how the integration of the immigrants happens; there are areas in Brussels that we are not be allowed to live in, and that the MEPs are advised not to go into; parts of Schaerbeek being an example.

It's been interesting watching what's happening with Greece and the German response to it. Merkel is on record last week as saying if the Tories get in nothing will happen with Lisbon (if Lisbon has to be renegotiated for a Greek bailout) that whatever the Tory intentions are, she will not have anything occur that she doesn't want to happen. That said it all really.

Widow, i have no problem with an migrant coming here provided you have a job and you integrate in OUR culture and society.

I object highly when i see my national identity, my culture and my values pushed aside to make way for foreigners who have no intention of integrating, no intention of embracing this nation and are more interested in replacing my culture and my customs with there own.

Multiculturalism is bollox. Its divisive, it creates enclaves and encourage separatism. Go walk round Leicester Belgrave, for example.. The only written words in English are the street signs, no one speaks english. Its like being a foreigner in your own country.

All multiculturalism amounts to is the slow destruction of the English nation, the English race and English society. How come every other minority is allowed to flaunt its culture, yet is we the English try it were accused of racism ? How come multiculturalism applies to everyone except the English? How come OUR culture has to give way every time ?

Like it or not, this is a white christian country, its isnt a Caribbean country, or a slavic state, it isnt an islamic state. I dont mind you practicing your origins, provided you dont shove them down my throat and accept that this is MY country, MY culture, and WE, the English, are STILL the 95% majority in England, and as such, WE the MAJORITY come first, culturally.

If you dont like OUR culture and our society, then go and practice YOU culture elsewhere. But I will not see it destroyed and swept aside. WE have been here more than 2000 years, and were not going to watch out nation destroyed by the EU without a fight.

I don't really see what the EU has to do with your ugly bigotted xenophobic rant.

(Oh, and regarding the "English Race" you might want to read up on history - Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Romans, Normans, Vikings and the few Celts which haven't been driven out- even your Royal family is German...)

WidowWadman

A little poem for you to read as you throw your weight around, talking about your entitlements and calling people "thick" because they don't share your world view.

The Beginnings
Rudyard Kipling

It was not part of their blood,
It came to them very late
With long arrears to make good,
When the English began to hate.

They were not easily moved,
They were icy willing to wait
Till every count should be proved,
Ere the English began to hate.

Their voices were even and low,
Their eyes were level and straight.
There was neither sign nor show,
When the English began to hate.

It was not preached to the crowd,
It was not taught by the State.
No man spoke it aloud,
When the English began to hate.

It was not suddenly bred,
It will not swiftly abate,
Through the chill years ahead,
When Time shall count from the date
That the English began to hate.

What is interesting is the way that integration is dealt with by different member states of the EU. In Belgium (in the Flemish speaking part), there is no allowance made for one's inability to converse in Flemish for example. If I want something from the Gemeente, then I have to ask in Flemish. They may take pity and speak in English if I'm struggling, but they may not.

All official correspondence including the annual tax return is in Flemish. The car tax comes in Flemish for dh and French for me (can't work out why). All those who come to Flanders looking for work have to learn to speak Flemish and are given access to subsidised classes; but this is linked I think to their benefits. Contrast this with the money spent on translations for those who don't speak English in the UK.

Equally, there are lots of Belgians where I live who resent the influx of the Brits into this area, arguing that we push up house prices and rental prices, and don't learn the language. However, we do for the most part put lots of money into the local economy, which has to be a good thing.

catinthehat - I don't see the relevance of that not particular good poem, but I've never liked Kipling much anyway. He's a bit too jingoistic for my taste.

Scaryteacher - "However, we do for the most part put lots of money into the local economy, which has to be a good thing. " Same can be said about immigrants to the UK, can't it?

You know, I thought it would go right over your head in every way possible! I was absolutely right.

Explain it to me then (and bear in mind that even Kipling came to his senses in the end and rejected what he's written earlier)

Europhile here.

I love the freedom to travel. When I worked in business, I really valued the harmonisation of standards, which meant we could market a single product across the whole EU.

I think Eurosceptism is important and healthy, though.

It depends on how much they are putting in I suppose. Dh is employed by HMG, so we put money into the Belgian economy, and the local taxes are paid collectively by HMG. We use the rubbish collection, but that is it. Our medical care is UK military, and ds goes to an international school.

What frustrates me is immigrants that come to whichever country and then damns it to hell. There are bits about Belgium that frustrate me, but that is how it is done here, and it makes it a quirky place to live. I have got used to most things being shut on Mondays, and most shops shutting for lunch each day. Individuals like Abu Hamza coming to the UK and then preaching sedition and destruction to the society that has taken him in strikes me as discourteous, especially as I believe we were paying him benefits.

Immigration is fine as long as those who come to whichever country are willing to adapt to and integrate with the country they have moved to. The problems arise when that is not the case, and they choose to live in their own communities and not integrate with the wider community.

I do agree with Lincstash to a certain extent in that I think that not allowing churches to advertise a play or a carol service in the local library as it may upset others is just PCness taken to the extreme. I also thoroughly disliked the whole idea of 'Winterval' as opposed to Christmas. British law and customs are based on Judeo- Christian principles and we should not be ashamed of that. If I chose to go and live in an Islamic State, then I would adhere to their rules on dress, drink and food laws - all that Lincstash is asking that immigrants to the UK do the same.

Incidentally Widow - if you are an EU citizen, then surely you don't count as a migrant, as you have a right under EU law to be in UK, just as I have to live in Belgium.

There are things in the UK that frustrate me and I don't think that having born elsewhere should mean that I can't have a negative opinion on some things. I don't agree with those expats who moan about everything that is different to their home or only mix with other expats.

And yes, I have the same right to be here as you have the right to be in Belgium, exactly one of the things I like about the EU and lincstash doesn't.

The stuff about carol services and winterval are by the way mostly fabrications by the right wing media.

'There are things in the UK that frustrate me and I don't think that having born elsewhere should mean that I can't have a negative opinion on some things.' Same as me with Belgium - I don't however stand up in a church or a mosque or a synagogue and slag it off as did Abu Hamza. I think 'grrr' when I forget the bank is shut at lunchtime and go and grab a coffee until it is open .

Nope, Winterval was introduced by Birmingham City Council as they didn't want to upset anyone by having Christmas. I don't see what is wrong with celebrating Diwali and then Christmas; that's the best bit about multiculturalism, that you can see openly what other people are celebrating, and enjoy them doing it. My mum's (CofE) parish church was not allowed to advertise their carol service and Christmas tree festival in the local library as it might have caused offence to others. Neither Birmingham City Council or my mum are fabrications of the right wing media to my certain knowledge, unless you know something about my mum I don't.