Britain's pensioners are the poorest in Europe.

[ivanahoe]

Millions of elderly people in Britain are having to choose between eating and heating their homes because the UK's State pension is so low, and what's more the media are sweeping this issue under the carpet.

The basic state pension for single pensioners is just £97. 25 a week, and this is following a 30, 40, and 50 year working life contributing to the system both taxes and NI contribution which were mandatory

The State pension used to increase with British male average earnings, or inflation whichever the higher to protect its value prior to 1979, but when Thatcher took office in 1979, she broke to state pensions link with male average earnings, and the state pension has decreased in value ever since, being linked to inflation, and New Labour have continued Thatcher's pension policy.

Because we British are not generally politically motivated until things happen to ourselves, I wonder how many on this site know about the very serious plight of pensioners in this country ?

People know what their council tax banding is before buying - you just have to ring the Local Authority and find out; same as you did for rates. Rates varied between councils, just as CTAX does, as it depended on what the rate poundage was i.e: RV x £y = amount payable.

'and we should return to the days when income tax increased to fund local services, and when people buying their houses knew what the rates were before buying, and they didnt expect the poor to pick up the bill, which is what has been happening since the 80's.'

I can't even find on Google when domestic rates were introduced, and I know that the last general domestic uprating was in 1974, so they had obviously been around a long time.

CC was introduced in 1989/90 and replaced by CTAX in 1993, and I know that as well as was a Community Charge Officer and then a Council Tax Officer for 10 years.

We are all means tested in that we earn enough to pay income tax and NI or not as the most basic form of means testing. If someone has a final salary pension which is enough for them to live on, and they get basic state pension - why should they get extra help? It needs to be targeted at those who are worse off, and means testing is how you achieve that.

You also need to go back to school methinks. If you have low rates of tax, especially for higher rate taxpayers, then you will get more income, as they will more willing to work to create wealth. If you have a punitive regime (til the pips squeak as Dennis Healy put it), where you are taxing someone's income at 80% say over a certain level, then you will drive people who create wealth and jobs away. Businesses will fold or leave the UK and jobs will be lost in the wider economy.

There is an attitude from many people in this country who regard their own as inferiors.

'This attitude smacks of the well known British arrogance held during the empire, where we made slaves on people in "their own countries", and so we continue to look down on our own. '

Please explain what you mean by 'our own'? Given that your average Brit is a hotch potch of different races what counts as 'our own'?

/////There is an attitude from many people in this country who regard their own as inferiors////

We are a nation that needs people to look up to, and people to look down on, Tony Benn referes to the British as a nation of bowers and scrapers, and he is right.

Aside from that, you dont know much about anything really do you, judging by your other comments.

/////enough already//////ivanahoe//////

/////enough already//////ivanahoe//////

I havent even started yet.

////If you have low rates of tax, especially for higher rate taxpayers, then you will get more income, as they will more willing to work to create wealth///

This is the biggest excuse for letting the rich off paying higher rates of income tax, whilst having the rest of us subsidise the rich in increases in council tax.

Britain does not need wealth creation, what it does need is productivety, but it wont get that with the Tories because the Tories dont want people working, they want people on the dole, and on benefits where they can be controlled.

////If someone has a final salary pension which is enough for them to live on, and they get basic state pension - why should they get extra help///

People who are working, irrespective of earnings, pay into the system for a state pension, and the state pension should be higher than what it is, therefore making no needs for means tested handouts.

People pay NI. It's not all just about a state pension. That's just part of it.

Anyone who thinks they're going to get as much out of it as they put it is deluded.

Reality bites.

But I ain't working even harder to support people unless they need it.

My former landlord is on a £27000/annum final salary scheme and he's only 62.

He's got a house I can only dream about and just sank 50 grand into it.

He goes travelling more than I did when I was a kid with a well-paid job, an even better paid husband, no kids and a rucksack on my back sleeping in tents or under the stars.

He took the £267 he got to heat a home he wasn't even living in last year and went away on safari for the weekend.

Means-test it all and means-test it now and if people don't like it, well, join the club!

/////Anyone who thinks they're going to get as much out of it as they put it is deluded.

Reality bites.

But I ain't working even harder to support people unless they need it.

My former landlord is on a £27000/annum final salary scheme and he's only 62.

He's got a house I can only dream about and just sank 50 grand into it.

He goes travelling more than I did when I was a kid with a well-paid job, an even better paid husband, no kids and a rucksack on my back sleeping in tents or under the stars.

He took the £267 he got to heat a home he wasn't even living in last year and went away on safari for the weekend.

Means-test it all and means-test it now and if people don't like it, well, join the club! ///////

What a load of short sighted bull.

And if you need to be told why, you will never understand where im coming from.

////People know what their council tax banding is before buying////

Oh dear oh dear, tis' no wonder our politicians get away with virtual murder in this country.

The point im making is the council tax increase fund local communities, income tax increases dont.

And as such millions of pensioners and low waged workers are finding themselves unable to pay council tax.

Central Government should fund all local communities adaquately from direct taxation, and the old rating system, abolished by Thatcher in 1980, returned.

just out of curiosity ivanahoe, what would you deem an adequate amount of money for pensioners to recieve?

how would taxation/ni contributions/funding structures be adjusted to allow for this?

would groups in reciept of other benefits (ie JA, housing benefit etc) see similar rises?

If so, how would taxation/ni contributions/funding structures be adjusted to allow for this?

If not, why not? Why would they be any less deserving than pensioners?

I really would like to know your thoughts here, please do not quote my entire post back to me and then say I'm a Tory who will never understand.

Chibi: I think Ivanahoe mentioned the figure of £250 a week state pension minimum for a single person or £300/£350 for a couple.

Personally, I think that Ivanahoe may be a little bit deranged or maybe just naive, but her grasp of the real world seems to be tenuous, in my opinion. And I am not a Tory, in fact, on the other thread about left/right leanings the only person as far to the left as me on the political graph thing was STALIN, causing huge hilarity in here.

Forget trying, chil. It's like teaching a dog to read with this poster: a pointless endeavour.

Anyone who disagrees is a Tory or short-sighed or doesn't understand or you get all this spew about Thatcher if you don't want to just hand out £200-£350 to everyone just because they're over a certain age.

She is also ignorant, as 'and the old rating system, abolished by Thatcher in 1980,' wasn't actually abolished until CC was bought in, and that was in 1990 - I was paying domestic rates until then, and I had my first job after graduating as a Community Charge Officer in 1990.

'The point im making is the council tax increase fund local communities, income tax increases dont.' Where do you think the money comes from for education? This may be administered by the Local Authority, but is paid for from income tax. Local Authorities are given what is known as a Revenue Support Grant form central govt each year (from taxation income) and can decide how they spend it.

Yes, one does the CTAX band of a property before one buys it, what you may not know is how that amount will alter each year, but we never knew that with the rate poundage either.

As for people who are working pay in, so should get pension out - Fred the Shred was working and paying NI. Do you think he should be entitled too?

she's best ignored, I think she must be a 15 yr old boy trying to wind up people here for kicks, surely someone can't be that short sighted and ignorant.

Agree ssd, perhaps Ivanhoe needs to reflect on 'to each according to his needs'. Having said that, I do have some sympathy for the passion for pensioners. ALthough my parents are better off than I can ever hope to be, I know that's not the same for all and the health services they experience can be appalling.

Anyway, agree the issue here is poverty.

Sir Michael Marmot, who is THE leading expert on the gap between rich and poor and the ill-health caused by poverty, calculates that the UK state pension only provides 2/3 of what you need to stay in good health. It's not enough to live on. It's not enough to have a nutritious diet and get out of the house, maintaining social contact and physical activity.

That's absolutely shameful for a developed country that had the fourth largest economy in the world (had because this may have changed with the financial crisis, haven't seen any updated figures).

Some pensioners are well off. Some people own their own homes. Many are not and do not. You may as well say poverty doesn't exist in sub-Saharan Africa because there are wealthy people there.

Some pensioners are well off, but the fact remains they also paid into the system like the poorest pensioners who are poor because the state pension is so low and that's all there is to it.

Means testing pensioners for state handouts is not the answser to old age poverty in this country, a universial increase in the basic state pension is the answer.

'Some pensioners are well off. Some people own their own homes. Many are not and do not. You may as well say poverty doesn't exist in sub-Saharan Africa because there are wealthy people there.'

That's why I feel there should be means-testing in place instead of just increasing it across the board.

Nearly every other public fund is (DLA excepted).

////surely someone can't be that short sighted and ignorant///

Oh I dont know, I think some of you are doing a really good job in that department.

chibi, At the EU summit at Laeken 2001 there was a ratified proposal that all member states should endeavour to attain a level of 40% of their median wages as their basic state pension by 2007 and thereafter work towards 60%.

An income of 60% of the median wage is considered the poverty line by the EU.

The British Basic Pension is 16% of the National average wage.

I also believe that British pensioners should receive the same concessions as European pensioners receive.

Like no standing charges on telephone bills, and no tv licence to pay for "all" pensioners.

What is this average wage that is being touted about. Where I live, the average salary is around £13,000 pounds a year. SO if a pensioner gets state pension, pension credits, HB, CTB, free dentists, prescriptions, travel etc. then they are doing alright, to be honest.

Why should you suddenly expect more just because you reach 65 or whatever? From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is what we should be striving for, and that needs to be means tested. Why should RIchard Branson and Sir Fred Goodwin receive the same level of public support as a pensioner who has spent their entire life caring for disabled offspring, for example.

//////chibi
just out of curiosity ivanahoe, what would you deem an adequate amount of money for pensioners to recieve?/////

If I had my way, ide give all single pensioners £250 a week and all couples £300 to £350 a week.

Plus ide abolish council tax for everybody.

ivanahoe, where would the money come to pay for all of this? How would NI contributions/taxation/funding structures be adjusted?

what about people in receipt of other benefits, i.e. JA, housing benefit - wouold they have their benefits similarly adjusted? If not, why not?

chibi, Where does the money come from to fight foreign wars ?, to fund into Europe ?, to uphold Royalty ?, the send to third world countries ?

Britain has got its spending priorities wrong, completely and utterly wrong.