Britain's pensioners are the poorest in Europe.

[ivanahoe]

Millions of elderly people in Britain are having to choose between eating and heating their homes because the UK's State pension is so low, and what's more the media are sweeping this issue under the carpet.

The basic state pension for single pensioners is just £97. 25 a week, and this is following a 30, 40, and 50 year working life contributing to the system both taxes and NI contribution which were mandatory

The State pension used to increase with British male average earnings, or inflation whichever the higher to protect its value prior to 1979, but when Thatcher took office in 1979, she broke to state pensions link with male average earnings, and the state pension has decreased in value ever since, being linked to inflation, and New Labour have continued Thatcher's pension policy.

Because we British are not generally politically motivated until things happen to ourselves, I wonder how many on this site know about the very serious plight of pensioners in this country ?

I wasn't referring to the Labour voters, but the Labour government. They have developed a dependency and entitlement culture.

There is now little notion of doing something for the greater good. Too many people want everything on a plate and to do nothing to contribute towards it or have any sense of responsibility.

One of the great ironies of party politics is the misinterpretation of Mrs Thatcher's 'there no such thing as society' speech. It was twisted to make it sound like it was everyone for themselves, and no one else mattered. What was meant, if you listened to more than a sound bite, was that you shouldn't expect someone else to always bale you out - you need to take responsibility and do your fair share.

However, what the Tories were falsely accused of, is exactly what Labour is advocating.

quite an interesting point raised about free buses passes being ageist. guess that might mean lunch/swimming pool/shopping discounts will have to go out the window? though i shouldn't be happy as i've subsidised oaps for years and it won't be available to me.

Earlier, someone posted about their mum receiving a state pension (and all other benefits that come with being retirement age), in spite of the fact she had never paid money in to the system (due to being a sahm/housewife).

I daresay there are millions of those (mostly female) pensioners currently receiving a state pension because being a sahm/housewife was common for our parents/grandparents.

I am glad the system supports these women who contributed a great deal to our families/society, but did not contribute financially to the 'system'.

That is one sign of a generous society, IMO.

I imagine that giving those retirees a full pension means that each individual's 'share' of the state pension pot is less.

/////I wasn't referring to the Labour voters, but the Labour government. They have developed a dependency and entitlement culture.

There is now little notion of doing something for the greater good. Too many people want everything on a plate and to do nothing to contribute towards it or have any sense of responsibility.

One of the great ironies of party politics is the misinterpretation of Mrs Thatcher's 'there no such thing as society' speech. It was twisted to make it sound like it was everyone for themselves, and no one else mattered. What was meant, if you listened to more than a sound bite, was that you shouldn't expect someone else to always bale you out - you need to take responsibility and do your fair share.

However, what the Tories were falsely accused of, is exactly what Labour is advocating////

I take it you are a Tory ?

Is that all you can offer, ivanahoe? Do you have any opinions on the points I have made, or do you just go for ad hominem remarks?

It is getting tiresome reading your unsubstantiated posts.

////Is that all you can offer, ivanahoe? Do you have any opinions on the points I have made, or do you just go for ad hominem remarks?

It is getting tiresome reading your unsubstantiated posts////

Well you can go read someone else's posts then, nothings stopping you.

Believe me, you are not my exclusive, lol.

It was interesting when I was teaching as all the kids knew their 'rights', but couldn't name the responsibilities that went with those rights; neither were many of them interested.

Again, Ivanahoe, show us the proof that state pensions are being withdrawn.

Tell us how exactly you would fund larger pensions given the financial mess we are in with UK debt likely to top £2.2 trillion in the coming year. It can't be done.

People can see the gaping holes in your argument and drive an articulated lorry through them, whatever their political persuasion.

You are either a Labour activist like Mulberrybush who has come on MN to stir things up, in which case, bugger off, as we have the brains to decide for ourselves how to vote thank you; or someone with an agenda who can't see that whatever they think, the sums for increasing pensions don't add up.

It isn't all me, me, me, incidentally. My dh and I don't ask the welfare state for help, and put in plenty in tax and NI. That is as it should be. I'm glad that we can. I also help my mum out, who is a pensioner, and would do more if she would let me. That is taking responsibility for myself and my family and not relying on anyone else to do it. Why should you be angry at that? We don't need the help, and it's good that a safety net is there for those who need it.

I think that pensioners over say the age of 75 should be exempt from having to pay council tax; that might help with their budgets.

Lots are through getting exemptions if they have dementia for instance, or through low incomes as they'll get ctb.

Mme I don't agree, based on my experience that a culture of dependency has been created- Dh was amde redundant last year, we live in one of the worst 3 areas for that in the UK,and he is one one of the worst industries. far from making him permanently dependent, the system of TCs has allowed him to retrain and set up a business that, as he acquires the training, should feasibly lead us back into self reliance. I ahve found other MN posters doing similar before. Apart frompeopl ewho cannot work because of either carer responsibilies (and I doconsider impossible childare conundrumswithin that- my sister is teetering ATM as her dh is very iill,cannot help out and she works nights and on call as a vet nurse, try finding childcare for that!), or disability /illness, dependence is something enforced by choice (acknowledging that ATM there are not enough jobs for the people who need them so steps toward getting off benefits such as training and similar are equally worthwhile)

This is for all the Tories on here.

Margaret Thatcher's government set out to deliberately create a welfare state culture by creating over 3 million unemployed by way of their policies on inward competition, and privatisation, both were intended to run down wages, and create redundancies and sackingsd on mass.

New Labour continued Margaret Thatchers policies from 1997.

There is an attitude from many people in this country who regard their own as inferiors.

This attitude smacks of the well known British arrogance held during the empire, where we made slaves on people in "their own countries", and so we continue to look down on our own.

Well, I'm not a Tory. And I feel that the pension should not be increased and if it is then we need to put means-testing in place.

People live too long nowadays to expect to live entirely on state pension for decades.

That's just a harsh truth that will soon be seriously biting my generation, our childrens' and grandchildrens' in the arse.

I think means testing generally is vital and no less appropriate for pensioners than anyone else - you should hear my DM reading 70 yo FIL on the subject of non-means tested benefits.

He retired 10 years ago on a final salary pension bringing in around 35k per year. Many more people of his generation will have final salary pensions which I don't think are going to last anywhere much longer. Many many pensioners don't need additional benefits at all so help shoulod rightly be targeted as there is a finite pot of money.

Even if the monarchy/armed forces/ all international aid was abolished, it still wouldn't be enough to fund this for ever and actually, I think people who are ft carers should get more out of the pot first (this doens't include me) at all.

I'm an airy fairy lib dem voter, me.

I gladly pay taxes to give a helping hand to people less fortunate than me. I don't think that income should preclude you from decent health care, education, ability to play a full part in society.

I don't pay taxes to futher feather the comfortable nests of the wealthy. If you're trying to pretend that the group "pensioner" doesn't include a lot of comfortably off people then you're not being very convincing.

There are many groups who are disadvantaged and need to be supported - carers, people with disabilities, unemployed people, pensioners. But it should be support based on need, not solely on status.

You haven't answered the question (amongst others) about whether you disapprove of all means testing or just for pension top-ups.

I am not a Tory

////I'm an airy fairy lib dem voter, me.///

Yes, and it shows.

////You haven't answered the question (amongst others) about whether you disapprove of all means testing or just for pension top-ups///

I disapprove of means testing pensioners, a person does not have to be a Tory to approve of means testing pensioners.

////I think that pensioners over say the age of 75 should be exempt from having to pay council tax; that might help with their budgets///

I believe council tax should be scrapped for everybody, and we should return to the days when income tax increased to fund local services, and when people buying their houses knew what the rates were before buying, and they didnt expect the poor to pick up the bill, which is what has been happening since the 80's.

/////I wasn't referring to the Labour voters, but the Labour government. They have developed a dependency and entitlement culture///

What a load of bull, where have you been for the past two decades and more, "MARS".

Thatcher and her cronies developed the benefit culture, and if you need that explained, I suggest you go back to school.

'I disapprove of means testing pensioners, a person does not have to be a Tory to approve of means testing pensioners. '

But it's good enough for everyone else, including the severely disabled, who have to apply for Disability Living Allowance (or someone else has to on their behalf) and whose Employment and Support Allowance (if they get it), carers' allowance, tax credits and every other benefit is means-tested.

////But it's good enough for everyone else, including the severely disabled, who have to apply for Disability Living Allowance (or someone else has to on their behalf) and whose Employment and Support Allowance (if they get it), carers' allowance, tax credits and every other benefit is means-tested////

I did'nt say that.

Yes, you did.

Someone asked:
'You haven't answered the question (amongst others) about whether you disapprove of all means testing or just for pension top-ups'

And you replied:

'I disapprove of means testing pensioners, a person does not have to be a Tory to approve of means testing pensioners.'

So how is it good enough for everyone else, but not pensioners?

Because to me, that's ageist. And ageism costs the economy.

A lot. More than we're soon going to be able to afford.

A vulnerable person isn't necessarily old.

//////Yes, you did.

Someone asked:
'You haven't answered the question (amongst others) about whether you disapprove of all means testing or just for pension top-ups'

And you replied:

'I disapprove of means testing pensioners, a person does not have to be a Tory to approve of means testing pensioners.'

So how is it good enough for everyone else, but not pensioners?

Because to me, that's ageist. And ageism costs the economy.

A lot. More than we're soon going to be able to afford.

A vulnerable person isn't necessarily old///

AGAIN I DID NOT SAY THAT.

And "what's costing the economy", is nothing more than almost 30 years of right wing low income tax free market policies beginning under Thatcher.

Actually CA isn'texactly means tested in that DH'sincome isn't brought into it,although work above 18 hours on pretty much minimum wage wuld exclude someone.

but you do ahve toprove rather conclusivel;y via DLA that the person you carefor needs that. And as it is considered a payment for loss of opportunity it is treated as tazable income (not complaining mind). Sadly it doesn't qualify you for employment rights or i'd be looking at complaining about my hours

Becuase of the stuff you have toprove to get it, the only way you could be not doing it is topay someone else tbh. Which still costs. As carecosts the Government £500 perweelupwards they're happier to ahve to pay out £53 pw CA tbh