Britain's pensioners are the poorest in Europe.

[ivanahoe]

Millions of elderly people in Britain are having to choose between eating and heating their homes because the UK's State pension is so low, and what's more the media are sweeping this issue under the carpet.

The basic state pension for single pensioners is just £97. 25 a week, and this is following a 30, 40, and 50 year working life contributing to the system both taxes and NI contribution which were mandatory

The State pension used to increase with British male average earnings, or inflation whichever the higher to protect its value prior to 1979, but when Thatcher took office in 1979, she broke to state pensions link with male average earnings, and the state pension has decreased in value ever since, being linked to inflation, and New Labour have continued Thatcher's pension policy.

Because we British are not generally politically motivated until things happen to ourselves, I wonder how many on this site know about the very serious plight of pensioners in this country ?

////I haven't seen a link saying basic state pension is being phased out nor what they are replacing it with. Nothing? Or perhaps pension credit as hallf of it is now?
To be honest I think £130 a week is pretty decent. Wish I had that much to spend but dh is working poor and we are carers////

When Thatcher broke the state pension link with national average earnings in 1980, she effectivelly began the process of bringing millions of pensioners into poverty by relacing a decent pension increasing as national prosprity increased, with means testing pensioners on a wide scale.

The basic State pension should be increased directly to at least £130 a week for uk single pensioners, with a relevant increase for couples.

Means testing pensioners on the present state pension of £97 a week is abhorant, demeaning, and descriminating.

WHAT MPs MUST REPAY
£4,000 for hotel stays
£711,000 for mortgage/rent
£12,000 for food
30 £10,000 for utilities
£35,000 for 59 Council Tax/Rates
£23,000 for phone & telecoms
£105,000 for cleaning
£81,000 on service/maintenance
£73,000 repairs/insurance/security:
£252,000 - 182 other payments:
Total: £1,305,000

Yet our pensioners, many of whom are war veterans, have to get by on a £5,000 a year state pension and means tested handouts.

Its a national disgrace.

'When Thatcher broke the state pension link with national average earnings in 1980, she effectivelly began the process of bringing millions of pensioners into poverty by relacing a decent pension increasing as national prosprity increased, with means testing pensioners on a wide scale.

The basic State pension should be increased directly to at least £130 a week for uk single pensioners, with a relevant increase for couples.

Means testing pensioners on the present state pension of £97 a week is abhorant, demeaning, and descriminating. '

I completely disagree. And also, many pensioners are widows. The majority of WWII vets are now dead.

If you don't like MP expense system, look at what your particular MP has claimed and vote accordingly. That's what I'm doing.

But I see nothing demeaning about means-testing, be the person 18 or 80. Zero.

There is loads of support available in this country, from the state and charities, to assist those who have difficulty completing forms.

My husband needs help as he has learning dififculties so severe he is only functionally literate.

I don't see how or why we should be increasing pensions across the board for the present generation without means-testing.

We can't afford it!

We have saddled our generation and the next two with staggering debts to bail out banks, we cannot expect or demand they also give out billions to people who may not need it.

I think £97/week is pretty decent if you're getting housing costs/council tax paid and possibly pension tax credit on top of that, too.

////I don't see how or why we should be increasing pensions across the board for the present generation without means-testing.

We can't afford it! /////////

Absolute bull.

We can afford to fight foreign wars, uphold Royalty, uphold means testing pensioners at a greater cost than a decent uprate in the state pension, not forgetting our £40+ million a day into Europe.

Not forgetting the money we send to Third World countries.

But when it comes to our old age pensioners, suddenly we cannot afford to pay them a decent state pension, but we can afford the means test system for them.

This is the same old Tory/Blairite/Brownite
spin.

Or it's just your fixed mindset ?

If they are war veterans they should get a war pension which is not taken into account when calculating HB or CTB.

My mum gets about £9,500 per year; owns her own house, runs a car, has savings in the bank from when she moved, can afford to heat her house, eats well, goes to patchwork classes, had broadband, went to the US last year to see her cousin, comes out to Brussels a couple of times a year to stay with us. I pay her travel or being her back with us when she comes over, and she obviously doesn't pay for anything other than the odd coffee whilst she's here, and I pick up the food bills when we go to stay with her in the summer as it's a jump from feeding one to feeding four. I would say she has a good quality of life, and I wouldn't say she is in poverty. She pays 75% CTAX as she lives alone. She can afford to buy new clothes, or gets them as pressies from me. She has a free bus pass and uses the library as she doesn't have room for loads of books.

As she has savings she is not eligible for CTAX benefit or pension credit and also because she has a works pension.

The bottom line Ivanahoe, that you do not seem to be getting, is that much as it would be nice to increase what pensioners get, the country can't afford to do it. We are up shit creek financially and will have to paddle very hard to get out from there. You still have not provided any concrete evidence to show that the state pension is being phased out. Your opinion is not factual evidence.

To put it into context, the size of the HB bill for England and Wales last year was more than the education and defence budgets combined. We can't go on like that. We cannot afford to, or there will be no money to pay anyone's pension.

'This is the same old Tory/Blairite/Brownite
spin.

Or it's just your fixed mindset ? '

It's a mindset that happens to be different from yours, and so far everyone here has been showing you far greater respect for your opinion that raising the pension is paramount.

I am of the believe that it's vital for us to continue aid to developing nations, vital for us to maintain a strong military.

I disagree with supporting royalty, but do not for one minute believe that if the government stopped doing that the money should go to increasing state pensions across teh board at all.

It is entirely possible to means-test benefits. It already happens for many of them.

So you don't agree, why do you instead denegrate people for having different beliefs?

Because beliefs put in government's who are alien to the human soul in policy making.

It is an obscenity to means test pensioners if they can't live on the basic state pension.

Because beliefs put in government's who are alien to the human soul in policy making.

It is an obscenity to means test pensioners if they can't live on the basic state pension.

Your beliefs are your own.

And what you define as an obscenity is your own.

I see no obscenity in means-testing pensioners. Nearly everything else is means-tested - tax credits, housing benefit, council tax benefit, Jobseeker's Allowance (excepting contribution-based), Income Support, Employment and Support Allowance, etc. etc.

Ever filled out a Disability Living Allowance form? Yikes! I'd take means-testing any day.

You find it obscene, others find it sensible.

OK. When we retire we will be comfortable. The state pension will supplement our pensions from our employers very nicely. When our parents die and we have inherited their houses and are even more comfortable, should we get a rise in pension, or should we be excluded from the help available because we have too much?

I would rather that there was means testing so that the money available could go to people who hadn't been able to build up a pension like Peachy and Riven because they have been carers, rather than go to people who don't need it, or in my case would use it to buy something I don't need.

As a couple on current values we would get about £800 per month, plus whatever dh gets from the RN, and I will get from my Local Govt and Teachers pensions. Yes, we will probably be paying higher rate tax on that as well, and yet you would advocate that we need as much as someone who hasn't had our advantages. It doesn't make sense to me. Help those who need it most, not those who don't (and I am a Tory!)

Yes, a Tory through and through, because its been all about you.

im neither interested or concerned about you Tories, you will all remain in the widerness after the next general election because all you think about is me me me.

Cameron will be sacked and a new leader will be searched for, because Cameron will get the blame you for party's failure, your party wont have the insight or knowledge or common sense to realise its your right wing etho manifesto that the public dont want./

Im concerned about "TODAYS" pensioners who have worked hard all their lives and paid their full contributions to society, but have been thrown on the scrap heap.

ivanahoe, you are coming across pretty dismally here, do you realise that?

are you very young? you do sound very immature.

do you have a relative you are basing your views on, or is your view coming from something you've read in the papers?

////I'm a Labour voter.
Pensioners already get a minimum of £130 a week plus housing benefit. I cant really see your issue///

Are you a "traditional" Labour supporter, or a New Labour supporter, there is a vital difference ?

///traditional. Am pretty old and have been for a beer with denis Skinner and Tony Benn. Dennis is my hero///

Tony Benn is mine, ive heard him speak, and he is spot on.

Also Tony Benn is dead against means testing pensioners as well.

I'm an SNP voter, much more leftie than your average labour type, and I don't really see how the state pension can or should be increased for all. I can't see why means testing for pension credits etc. could be seen as offensive either.

MY OH is in a low paid job, I am a full time carer to my autistic children. we have never been able to pay into a private pension before, although now OH has changed jobs, some of his salary is automatically deducted every month by the company he works for. HE is almost 50, though, and on around £14,000 a year, so whatever we get at the end of it won't be much. Everything we get is means tested and always has been. I am not offended by it now, and see no reason to become offended by it when we reach pension age. It's laughable that anyone could imagine that money could or should be handed out to everyone, willy-nilly, regardless of need. Surely whatever monies the government has "in the system" as it were should be targeted at meeting the needs of the most vulnerable.

It is not a get out what you pay in system, it is a system designed to keep society running smoothly and to keep the poorest from destitution. I live in an area plagued by endemic, chronic poverty, and around here, the pensioners are some of the best off people you will find. I regularly hear them talking about spending their fuel allowances on presents for the grandchildren/extra booze down the pub/holidays etc. Few and far between are the ones who seem to need to spend it on fuel. I know a lot of old people very well, through my church, and everyone of them reckons that they have never been so well off. as someone has already said a 65 year old pensioner is far better off than a 64 year old unemployed person. Ther are all sorts of things that suddenly become available to you when you hit 65.

Ivanahoe, you would be better off stepping back and paying attention to the tone of your posts. You are coming across very badly and making yourself look very close minded and foolish.

If the tories only look out for their own, how come ST has, despite a great many politcal debates over the years , on this thread pointed me in the direction of info that could potentially save my pension one day?

I'm not a Tory,I hope they don't get in (though suspect they will) but most people huddle around a relatively central line whereby the most vulnerable are protected regardless. The extremists exist, and they exist on here, but they are rare.

/////Ivanahoe, you would be better off stepping back and paying attention to the tone of your posts. You are coming across very badly and making yourself look very close minded and foolish///

I could actually say the same for a lot of people on here.

But I wont.

'Im concerned about "TODAYS" pensioners who have worked hard all their lives and paid their full contributions to society, but have been thrown on the scrap heap. '

We are all working hard and paying in. And my generation, age 40 or so, are going to have to work far longer than today's pensioners to get anything at all.

Today's pensioners are not thrown on any scrap heap! There is a relatively generous pension available to all whether they need it or not, payments to help them heat their homes working poor with young children and many disabled don't get, and tax credits plus housing/council tax benefit available to them if they qualify.

If we want to end age discrimination we need to quick handing out stuff like free transport and fuel payments just because a person is over a certain age.

Excellent point expat. Age discrimination works both ways. My parents don't need their bus passes. They don't need their fuel allowance. Just because they're in their 60s doesn't mean they're poor.

It's poverty that's the enemy and it doesn't age-discriminate.

It will be interesting to see whether the baby boomers are less bothered about means testing than their forefathers.

I get that if you grew up pre-welfare state that benefits smacked of charity and the workhouse. Today's new crop of pensioners literally grew up with the welfare state. Are they more accepting of the way it works?

Absolutely agree that it can be labyrinthine and people may need more help making sure they get what they're entitled to - that goes for everyone though.

John Wesley said: earm all you can, save all you can, give all you can.

Wise words.

Why did we let Labour ruin our Protestant work ethic?

Mme many people who always voted labour have wonderful work ethics.

It isn't something down to who you vote for at all.

Most of the people I know who have zero work wthic vote for nobody because they haven't got the arse for that either.