Britain's pensioners are the poorest in Europe.

[ivanahoe]

Millions of elderly people in Britain are having to choose between eating and heating their homes because the UK's State pension is so low, and what's more the media are sweeping this issue under the carpet.

The basic state pension for single pensioners is just £97. 25 a week, and this is following a 30, 40, and 50 year working life contributing to the system both taxes and NI contribution which were mandatory

The State pension used to increase with British male average earnings, or inflation whichever the higher to protect its value prior to 1979, but when Thatcher took office in 1979, she broke to state pensions link with male average earnings, and the state pension has decreased in value ever since, being linked to inflation, and New Labour have continued Thatcher's pension policy.

Because we British are not generally politically motivated until things happen to ourselves, I wonder how many on this site know about the very serious plight of pensioners in this country ?

///What evidence do you have that the Government is phasing out the state pension Ivanhoe; and legally can they do that under EU legislation? AFAIK no act of Parliament has been passed to do this, and I presume they would have to introduce such legislation to phase out the state pension///

Firstly, when Tony Blair held Presidency of Europe in 2005 and where he brought in his constitution which is now the Lisbon Treaty, Mr Blair secured 3 opt-outs from EU policy.

In no order of merit these "opt-outs"" were as follows,-

Taxation.

Welfarism

Pensions.

Secondly, the UK state pension is being phased out because the right wing do not believe in the "role of the state" which includes state pensions, the right wing prefere individuals to do their own thing, its called having "choice".

This was stipulated by one of Thatchers speeches in the 80's that the state would be rolled back.

New Labour have continued all of Thatcher's fundamentall right wing policies

If that'strue, how come I am better off asa carer with a recently redundant DH than I would have been under the Thatcher Government?

You have no evidence Ivanhoe. You are dealing in the fear of those who areworied about their futures. Exceptthatcannot workasmost of who will be genuinely dependent on a state pension and know that already realise there is sod all we can do about it and there is no point worrying until it happens. Which is not the same as apathy: political activism is fine .Unfounded panic however is not.

ivanhoe - you are talking absolute crap now. there's no way you can compare this labour gov with thatcher. And just because there's an opt-out doesn't mean they are going to get rid of something. You are either very thick or you are just saying this to cause a stir

////ivanhoe - you are talking absolute crap now. there's no way you can compare this labour gov with thatcher. And just because there's an opt-out doesn't mean they are going to get rid of something. You are either very thick or you are just saying this to cause a stir////

Believe what you like, just imagine what would happen if the media really decided to pick up on all this. There would be anachy, even in Britain.

Im afraid its true.

New Labour continued Thatcher's fundamental right wing policies from 1997, in tax, pension, and privatisation.

////If that'strue, how come I am better off asa carer with a recently redundant DH than I would have been under the Thatcher Government?

You have no evidence Ivanhoe. You are dealing in the fear of those who areworied about their futures. Exceptthatcannot workasmost of who will be genuinely dependent on a state pension and know that already realise there is sod all we can do about it and there is no point worrying until it happens. Which is not the same as apathy: political activism is fine .Unfounded panic however is not////

Because New Labour have introduced a wide set of means tested and non means tested benefits.

But this does not alter the fact that New Labour's tax, pensions, and privatisation policies all began under Thatcher in 1980.

'Secondly, the UK state pension is being phased out because the right wing do not believe in the "role of the state" which includes state pensions, the right wing prefere individuals to do their own thing, its called having "choice".

This was stipulated by one of Thatchers speeches in the 80's that the state would be rolled back.'

I am a Tory and fairly right wing, but would not get rid of pensions or benefits, so I think you are wrong. Health and education are also the 'role of the state' but I don't see those disappearing do you? Yes, one has the choice to start saving early for retirement, and most people I know in work do; however, that is not to say that state pensions should disappear because like Peachy and Riven, if you give up your career because you save the state money by being a carer, you should get a full pension entitlement.

It matters not what Mrs T said in the 80s. IIRC she was ousted in 1990 and whilst she undoubtedly left a political legacy, governments since then have the power to legislate in ways of which she would not approve.

I think you are clutching at straws and as Peachy says scaremongering. There is an inverted triangle with less people paying in NICs than those taking out, but that can be addressed by tax rises and the introduction of a compulsory pension fund, and by making sure you pay in as soon as you start working.

///I am a Tory and fairly right wing, but would not get rid of pensions or benefits, so I think you are wrong. Health and education are also the 'role of the state' but I don't see those disappearing do you?///

Well actually im not wrong, im right, completely and utterly right.

Thatcher brought in right wing low income tax trickle down economics to fund all our vital services while privatisation messed up the NHS, and Community Care, and the state pension had the link to earnings removed, and the link to inflation remained.

New Labour have indeed continued where Thatcher left off.

Today the state pension being linked to inflation is worth just 16 per cent of national average wages.

Tommorow it will be worth less.

thought the NHS was a public body. Isn't that why its called national health service?

It's our responsibility to provide for our own pensions during our working lives. The state pension was never ever meant to be anything more than a safety net. It was never meant to offer any level of luxury.

Well, if New Labour have continued with Mrs Thatcher's policies, doesn't that suggest that she was right?

The NHS was not mucked up by privatisation at all. I use the NHS when I have time and go private when it's something urgent. I have 'choice' and can make my decisions on how I spend my money. My fil, who is a pensioner, is having two knee ops, both done privately, because it is quicker and easier.

As for the state being rolled back, given the current level of state intrusion into our lives, then yes, it should be rolled back.

You show us, in writing, where it says in either a Labour or Tory document that the state pension is being phased out. You can't can you? No evidence or proof. QED.

Under Thatcher 3.3 million were unemployed with no hope of a job.

The economy went into recession and the dole was being withdrawn unless you could "prove" you were actively searching for work.

She ruined millions of people's lives and put millions more into unproductive boredom and hardship.

It cost the country £40b in lost productivity.

Norman Lamont told us that "If it ain't hurting it ain't working", but the truth was it was just hurting.

Meanwhile as the City of London got richer on public share sell-offs and massive bonuses for cost-cutting, the Yuppy was born into a "me first" society.

New Labour have continued Thatcherism 100 per cent, because our politicians live in a different world to the rest of us.

////Well, if New Labour have continued with Mrs Thatcher's policies, doesn't that suggest that she was right?

The NHS was not mucked up by privatisation at all. I use the NHS when I have time and go private when it's something urgent. I have 'choice' and can make my decisions on how I spend my money. My fil, who is a pensioner, is having two knee ops, both done privately, because it is quicker and easier.

As for the state being rolled back, given the current level of state intrusion into our lives, then yes, it should be rolled back.

You show us, in writing, where it says in either a Labour or Tory document that the state pension is being phased out. You can't can you? No evidence or proof. QED. ////

YSorry, you are wrong.

What is wrong with proving that you are seeking work if you are on the broo? Sounds pretty reasonable to me, and what I would expect.

'You show us, in writing, where it says in either a Labour or Tory document that the state pension is being phased out. You can't can you? No evidence or proof. QED.'

Prove it to me with facts and draft legislation and manifesto commitments that the state pension is being withdrawn.

Where am I wrong? That my fil is having a private op tomorrow? No waiting list, straight into a Nuffield Hospital 10 days after seeing the consultant and job done.

Under Mrs Thatcher I got jobs, a free university education (with grant), and another job after that.

Yes, if you are getting job seekers, you should prove you are looking for work. I think Mrs Thatcher espoused rights with responsibilities, and at present it's too many 'rights' and not enough responsibilities. The benefit culture that some live in today (and I've seen it in some of my students) seems to me like unproductive boredom, and a huge sense of entitlement 'why should I work, when the state will keep me?'

Methinks this site is true blue, 100 per cent self centred, while Thatcher threw millions out of work to reduce inflation, whilst creating a rich and poor devide
"as a matter of policy".

Change the record, Ivanhoe.

While I very much admire Mrs T, she was in power for 11 years, and it is almost 20 years since she left No 10. Socialists have had plenty of time to reverse her policies and have, in general, done a very bad job on all fronts.

I will reiterate that it is our responsibility to provide for our own retirement. It is ludocrous to expect a better standard of living on retirement as you had during nonworking life. The pension is nothing more than a safety net. That is how it was when Lloyd George introduced it, and that is how it should remain.

Not at all; but if you want to make assertions about something like the state pension being phased out, then provide hard evidence please. So far, you have consistently failed to do so.

Yes, some pensioners are poor, and should receive help to claim pension credit, but many will refuse to do so as they will see it as charity and to a certain generation, it smacks of the workhouse.

As to what Mrs Thatcher did or did not do, she was out of power in 1990, and Labour have been governing since 1997. If they are the solution to all the ills of the UK, why have they not solved all the problems? They have had well over a decade to do so.

x post with MmeBlueberry. Shouldn't that be MmeMyrtille to carry on the french theme?

/////As to what Mrs Thatcher did or did not do, she was out of power in 1990, and Labour have been governing since 1997. If they are the solution to all the ills of the UK, why have they not solved all the problems? They have had well over a decade to do so////

Perhaps they dont want to be any more than all things to all men.

And I say again that the basic state retirement pension is being phased out, in place of the private pension as the cornerstone of retirement.

And this is because New Labour, like Thatcher, favour people looking after themselves in a recession created by our own free market.

////It's our responsibility to provide for our own pensions during our working lives.
The state pension was never ever meant to be anything more than a safety net. It was never meant to offer any level of luxury///

This governmen'st own definition of poverty is £12,000 a year, so you would admit that a £5,000 a year state pension is too low ?

////What is wrong with proving that you are seeking work if you are on the broo? Sounds pretty reasonable to me, and what I would expect.////

I find it pathetic that unemployment is stigmatized in Britain, there is no trust, because the system doesnt trust, which means none of us trust anybody any more.

But on a basic state pension you do not need to pay for housing costs (Housing benefit) or council tax. You also get £200 extra for winter energy bills, free bus travel, free dental and free prescriptions.

Pension credits will also bring the figure up.

We also have in the country the luxury of not having to worry about medical bills.

TBH the working poor in this country have it far tougher.

Here's one for the Tories on here.

Should our MP's still be able to do all that they did re- claiming allowances, and other perks from the tax payer, baring in mind an MP's salary is around £64,000 a year ?

And before all you true blues respond, ide add that dole scrounging adverts still appear on TV adds.

Are these two examples not a manifestation of one law for the rich, and one law for the poor in this country ?

You don't therefore find the £15 billion per year that is lost in benefit fraud a waste? Defrauding taxpayers isn't very trustworthy is it? That money could be put to use elsewhere.

State and private pensions go alongside each other. My mum gets less than the full state pension and has a small employment pension that she gets taxed on. She has savings as she sold and moved and downsized when she did so. No, she's not as well off as when she was working, but she owns her house outright, so only has to pay food, CTAX, bills and running her car.

If you have the opportunity to be in an employers pension scheme, why wouldn't you? I joined one when I was 18.

You are also being disingenuous.. whilst the state pension may be £97.50 per week, many pensioners will also be getting full HB and CTB, so their housing costs are paid for. That has to be worth a couple of hundred a month at least. They may also have help with prescriptions and get free bus passes. Many of the costs that we incur will be gone.

I don't think unemployment is stigmatised at all, if it is genuine. However, when it is the 'I can't be bothered, let the government provide' that many teenagers come out with, then it needs to be stigmatised and challenged to change the entitlement to benefits culture that exists.

A lot of the problem is down to the fact that state (and public sector) pensions are unfunded. This means that pension payouts have to be met from taxation. while most people would happily say that pensioners ought to be given more, the same people would probably resist a rise in tax, this is the dichotomy that governments face, especially now GB has screwed the economy right up,