Why would Reform voters accept that they will scrap the NHS?

[NEGUY82]

Even when you present them with pretty undeniable proof they wants to do it they just say "lefty propaganda, he said he won't" - well of course he says he won't it would cost him the election.

It's all very well saying that pre-existing conditions would be covered. Unfortunately that means we'd have to pay a massive premium. I've had lots of bits of me go wrong, I don't have the money to pay higher insurance. I was refused life insurance once due to old MH conditions.

I'm on dialysis, I'm convinced Farage would mean my death. My household income isn't even £50k.

If everyone gave what they could afford, the NHS’s financial issues would be all but over. It would certainly clear the current backlog of cases.

This appeal was a no-brainer for me as we’re lucky enough to have a purpose-built cancer centre only a few miles away. And a modern cancer centre with the latest equipment is able to attract some of the best doctors in the country.

I don't know much about Palantir but I thought the objections were around data security.

I would love to see some actual calculations for people donating to the NHS to solve all of its problems.

Yep, I'm horrified about what the Chinese might do with the results of my blood tests. Just anonymise it - you don't need personal info linked to everything just your NHS number. It really could've saved a small fortune.

There must be people on dialysis in all the EU systems. I am sure they are not personally paying the full cost of their treatment. I can understand your concern though.
I would never vote for Farage, I vote Conservative.

So, excuse me but where are people thinking they will find the money for insurance payments which may stretch to hundreds of pounds a month and will be payable for every adult in a household. What happens to pre existing conditions? Looking round at the obesity and ill health that seems prevalent today everyone with high risk factors will presumably pay higher premiums. What about an and e and intensive care. Regardless of how much you pay for your private op if it all goes pear shaped you will be immediately shipped off to the NHS. These services are not profitable and therefore are not provided by the private sector. Most European countries charge their citizens who either find the money or go without. What about pensioners or those otherwise on fixed incomes? We will all get older and unhealthier but given that pensions are already not going to be sufficient for a large proportion of the population where will the money come from. We don’t realise what we have in the NHS and once it is gone there will be no going back. Bit like Brexit really! Oh and this solution has been suggested by the person who said Brexit would make us all richer and happier I believe. What could possibly go wrong?

Financial problems. Not all problems. No one will have such figures for the simple reason that this system currently only exists on a very small scale e.g. the radiotherapy appeal I just mentioned. General taxation would be a more reliable and sustainable way of increasing NHS funding, unfortunately Brits tend to resist tax rises more strongly than many other Europeans. Hence a short-term charity fundraiser is worth considering.

More money would give the NHS the chance to get out of crisis mode and make savings in the long-term. For example, if the NHS could afford to employ more clinical staff, and retain them, it could reduce its reliance on extremely expensive staffing agencies. And if it had the budget to clear the current backlog of cases, then some patients would have better outcomes and present with fewer complications.

The UK currently spends $6,747 per person per year on healthcare (2024 figures). To match French healthcare spending we’d need to raise this to $7,354 and sustain it for long enough for the long-term changes to come to fruition. I think that’s feasible, especially as Ireland pays $7,813 and the Dutch system, which has been admired on this thread, costs $8,436.

There is more than one alternative. It doesn't have to be the US system. Lots of other countries have health systems, either insurance backed or co-pay where expensive treatments are still paid principally by the state and where pre-existing conditions are covered. We need to be looking at European, Canadian and Australian health systems to learn how to improve our system rather than obsessing about the US system as being the only option.

But, if we don't, we WILL end up sleepwalking into a US style system by default as that's similar to what we have with private healthcare in the UK today.

If we want to avoid going down the US route, we need to open our minds to better alternatives than the NHS, i.e. European style co-pay or state insurance backed systems.

But the French, Irish and Dutch systems are different to the UK's NHS. It's not just about money, it's about lots of other factors. Throwing money at the NHS won't solve the problems. We'd also need to adopt other aspects of the French, Irish or Dutch system if we want to emulate them properly, such as state insurance backed or co-pay. Also practical matters such as copying their GP/clinic/hospital/trust organisation systems which would probably mean removing GP's from their gatekeeping role as in the UK and major increase in small clinics for minor injuries, x-rays, prescriptions, etc.

I would like to try funding the NHS properly before embarking on the huge cost and disruption of changing the entire system to one which may or may not offer better value for money.

Let’s not pay a significant proportion of the healthcare budget to insurance companies unless we absolutely have to.

We could fund the NHS better by charging for things like appointments, bandages, prescriptions, etc.

We could also offer NHS "upgrades" at a price for things like private rooms, queue jumping, choice of appointment times, better MRI scans, etc - the kind of things that people pay private for, but let the NHS do it, so the NHS gets the money, rather than private business owners. If someone is going to pay for a private MRI because they can't tolerate the NHS "tube" MRI machine, then let the NHS buy the better machine and charge people who want to use it. Maybe even better quality meals at a price for people who could afford it?

Yes, I know there'll be howls of anguish from the usual suspects about "two tier" healthcare, but it's what we already have today, but it's worse today as it's private firms taking the profits from people willing and able to pay - why should the NHS be starved of that money if they can provide a similar "enhanced" service?

I think we should explore other funding options before any more tax hikes, as the last round of tax hikes have damaged the economy and I don't think there are many pips left to squeak!

it's private firms taking the profits from people willing and able to pay

Not necessarily. My surgery was done in a NHS dedicated ophthalmic theatre by the surgeon who does all his work there. From the fee I paid him he paid to rent the theatre and pay the nursing staff. My procedure was done at the end of his NHS shift.

I agree! So many big mouths saying some people dont have 50p, make poor decisions etc. We need a cross party review of the monster that is the NHS. I have worked with them as a supplier. Stop bleating that its the NHS or the US system. That isnt even correct.

They are truly awful, want cheap and cheerful, stuck in the dark ages, dont want change, dont want to do additonal training because the staff would rather use what they 'know' even though some suppliers are refusing to maintain the equipment because its that old. Some of the systems literally have sticking plasters over them.

No, we pay. And under a private system we will pay a great deal more. And any privatised service will immediately be subject to a review which leads to far fewer highly qualified staff. As has already been happening, and leading to the health pages here being stuffed with complaints about some GP practices, for example.

If you lot are so keen on it, you should be open and say in the press who you are, and who your political allegiance is. Except you won’t, probably, because it’s so unpopular.

Exactly, if they have such love for private healthcare why aren't they doing it already?? Apparently they can afford it and it won't affect them at all, why aren't they doing it already? There's nothing stopping them.

50p, how condescending. It'll end up hundreds a month - do you have hundreds a month to spare? I don't.

And why are they sneering at people who make that choice and lessen pressure on waiting lists?

Comprehension fail on your part or deliberately misunstandering my point. I’m out. It’s a waste of time.

Are "normal" people throughout Europe paying "hundreds a month"? I don't think so, yet on the whole, healthcare on the continent seems a lot better,

The CURRENT private healthcare system in the UK is expensive, but that doesn't have to be the alternative. We need to look at European systems. It's only so expensive in the UK because the private providers are cherry picking their services and clients so can charge full whack. If there was a lot more private provision (or co-pay with the state system), there'd be more competition and prices would fall. But if we don't make the hard decisions, we WILL end up with the ruinously expensive US system.

My family does. We pay over 300 euros per month in health insurance for a family of four.

Families that earn up to 50k a year can get a subsidy.

Because we’re all stuck with NHS A&E as there are no private ones - at least outside London so far as I’m aware.

Having seen a vulnerable relative have to wait five hours for an ambulance, six hours in ambulance outside A&E , 8 hours on a trolley in a corridor to die as untreated , I’m not sanguine about relying on NHS.

This is fine when you're working but they will charge a huge amount to keep this insurance when you leave work if you have pre-existing conditions. You're also much more likely to need healthcare when you retire.