Why would Reform voters accept that they will scrap the NHS?

[NEGUY82]

Even when you present them with pretty undeniable proof they wants to do it they just say "lefty propaganda, he said he won't" - well of course he says he won't it would cost him the election.

But you’ve just criticised the current model which allowed me to use my own money and take nothing from the NHS yet you want institutionalised co payments. What about all those poor people you were so concerned about?

The current 'model' of people paying for their own care because they are pissed off at waiting six years for a hip replacement is not an official model of care in the UK, as you well know. It doesn't allow for proper planning.

If we moved to a formal model of mixed payment methods, the poor people would be fine because they would be able to access care in a structured way. You got your cataracts fixed. Good for you. Maybe you should be more concerned that others don't have cash floating around like you do.

I am not a fan of Farage but I don't believe he has ever suggested the US model is one to be aspired to.

No American to my knowledge would defend their system as optimal! It is insanely expensive and exclusionary.

It irritated me so much when people suggest that the only alternative to the NHS is the US model.

The NHS is a terrible model because it has all the wrong incentives. It's free so it is used excessively by some and wastefully (not turning up by others).

From an operational perspective while there are some hugely dedicated individuals it's is institutionally bloated and chronically inefficient. No one has any incentive to make things work better.

It needs abolition and replacement with a system (like in Ireland) where everyone pays something to see a doctor. So people think twice about using it only if they really need it.

Then it needs to work like private medicine and the insurance companies do. Where medicine is provided by private healthcare companies and paid for (typically on a tariff basis) by a govt regulated insurance fund itself funded by NI contributions.

High taxation works well in Scandinavia, so it might be worth a try here.

I don’t think it’s up to you to decide what I should be concerned about, @JimBobsWife . Or to make assumptions about my finances. Co payments would inevitably impact detrimentally on the poorest in society and go against the basic tenets on which the NHS was created.

I disagree. You cannot fund infinite demand from limited taxpayer funds. All those other systems often have co-pays which helps manage demand and may put off frequent flyers/timewasters.
Our system manages the infinite demand by making you wait ages for basic care. People report not being able to get GP appointments for several weeks unless they make an urgency case.
GPs in other systems are paid per patient visit so they actually want to see and treat you. Our system gives GP practices a fixed payment for having you on their list, so there is an incentive to manage workflow by making it as difficult as possible for you to see them.
The patient has no power within the system to shop around for the best care, you can't even choose who treats you.
The NHS has wasted loads of money on rainbows and unicorns etc lol....how dare they, when people have to wait hours for an ambulance?

I don't know if you have noticed but those basic tenets aren't working so well!

Our NHS today bears little resemblance to what Beveridge proposed so I don't see why whatever the basics tenets were in 1948 is that relevant today.

It’s like Jenga, pull the foundations away and the entire thing collapses.

Would you like to pay that higher tax or would you just like other people to? Do you not feel taxed enough?

Well it will otherwise just collapse on its own weight in due course. Personally I'd favour a controlled demolition!

What evidence do you have for that?

Even Scandinavian healthcare isn't fully funded by general taxation.

You're very welcome to pay more tax on a voluntary basis in the UK if you feel strongly about it.

If nothing is done by politicians to create a proper mixed system which works in harmony, it will go the same way as NHS dentistry. People are going to increasingly opt out into private insurance, employers are going to provide such benefits as they don't want staff off sick any longer than necessary.
I much prefer having a private dentist who I choose, to an ever changing NHS one but I don't think the dearth of NHS dentists for those who need them is a good thing. It hasn't been managed well. The dentists have simply opted out of the NHS contract which is their right.
The fact that staff keep going on strike in the NHS also makes me think reform would be better. I don't think healthcare staff should be allowed to strike really as they are essential.

The Dutch system is not perfect but it seems to work a lot better than the NHS.

I have had experience of two major NHS trusts over the last six months and the wastage and poor care is appalling. The idea that all NHS staff are heroes working in difficult circumstances is just not true. Rude, obstructive nurses who have not cared for my elderly mother at all. Shockingly noisy wards where sleep is impossible. Food that looks like pig slop. Lack of joined up care with a different consultant doing ward rounds every day trying to work out what their colleague said yesterday. And all this to a confused 82 year old who doesn't have a fucking clue what is going on and is now incontinent through negligence.

Yes, it's an anecdote but I doubt I'm the only one. If this is what our billions and billions and billions of taxpayer money is funding, I'm sick of it and want something better.

I do what I can. I’m not rich by any means but I donated £150 to our local radiotherapy unit, as they needed to raise money to buy new equipment.

That's wonderful. I'm sure that will solve all the NHS's funding problems.

I'm personally ok with higher taxes if they are actually well spent. I'm more annoyed at people much richer than me avoiding them and getting away with it than I am at the prospect of having to pay a bit more to live in a better country.

I can confirm that money is not well spent in the NHS. Over the last six months, I have witnessed tonnes of food thrown away. My mum has just had a CT scan in one trust but needs to have the same CT scan at another trust because they don't share imaging records. I even saw someone asleep on shift. Until this shitshow is dealt with, I don't want another penny of my money siphoned off for the NHS.

That's what the new software was supposed to solve but people were all:

"dUh tWo TiEr KiEr CoMmIe" so it got scrapped.

If Farage suggested it they'd think it was the best thing since sliced bread.

But yes, that's insane - one of the many things that need changing - changing, not scrapping.

No it's that there is no incentive to not waste money, the Government pays....

I don't know what you mean by new software. If you're talking about a single patient record, I believe that is being discussed although I'm sure will take about a decade knowing our ability to deliver infrastructure projects.

I don't care who improves it. If it's Farage, so be it. The problem is whenever he even utters the words 'NHS' you get hysterical socialists sobbing that it's our national religion.

Decisions on NHS should be cross-party. It needs to be taken out of the conventional government structure.

I'm talking about Plantier, it was supposed to centralise records to stop the kind of waste we're discussing, it could've saved mil/billions in repeat tests.

I don't trust Farage as far I could throw him (which trust me, isn't very far).

I actually agree with your last paragraph.

Do you mean Palantir?

Yes