Why would mumsnet leftists vote Green over reform?

[Wizeman]

Now I have your attention

What are the substantive political reasons for voting for the Green Party over Reform UK?

Please avoid responses based on personality or tone (e.g., claims that one leader is “nicer” than the other). Instead, I am interested in clear policy-based arguments and ideological reasoning.
Reform UK is led by Nigel Farage, a businessman with a long-standing role in national politics. The Green Party is currently led by Zak Polanski, whose professional background includes work in theatre and as a hypnotist.

With that in mind, I would welcome serious explanations focused on policy positions, governance approach, economic strategy, and long-term outcomes, rather than personal character assessments.

I’m sorry if I’m wrong but are you part of the Reform party leadership? It reads like you are.

There’s huge parallels between the demonisation of immigrants within Reform and the rise of the Nazi party, so I’d pretty much rather vote for anyone else but Reform. Dehumanising other people is enough to switch me off completely. All wrongs in this country are not all down to immigration, but if you listen to Farage you’d think they are. It’s the oldest and most despicable political trick there is.

I live in Kent too, Reform are a laughing stock in terms of broken promises and being fairly ridiculous in their supposedly immense cutting of costs, which has lead them to sell off our county art collection at knockdown prices and try to get rid of heritage lampposts within Canterbury that have been there for many decades. They can’t run a bath.

Oh and I must add, Reform are now a bin for failed Tories. As Badenoch has just said, Reform are literally emptying the Tory party of their rubbish.

Why would anyone vote for a load of politicians who have jumped ship from a failing party just to try for a bit of power despite being a bit crap themselves? Nope no way could I vote Reform. Not without a lobotomy anyway.

I don't particular like what the Green party have become but if it's a choice between them and a bunch of people who don't care about anybody but themselves (as evidenced by all the defectors who are too cowardly to call a byelection and allow their constituents to decide if they want a Reform M.P or not), then my vote would go to the Greens.

Well it is true as in anyone with any form of temporary leave to remain has NRPF and also has to pay for the NHS (normally as a charge added on with the visa application fee).
There are some Ltd exceptions though, where you can apply to have this condition removed from your visa conditions if in dire need only - those from Hong Kong, or accepted as trafficking victims I think, or here under family/private life - and they will be assessed if they meet destitute criteria. This is not available to those on work/study routes, entry spouse and more.
If you are here temporarily but your child is British then you’ll get child benefit and possibly UC for the child though not yourself.
Not all benefits are public funds either so ESA if you’ve paid stamp eg isn’t and also council tax reduction isn’t. I believe DLA wasn’t at one point though is now.
If you Google there’s a lot of information including the NRPF network and the gov.uk page which will tell you about the above - better probably too. However, whilst it’s the HO with guidance on attaching (or removing NRPF) it’s then upto the DWP how they interpret what is allowed if it is unclear and sometimes local authorities if they have families struggling/in need may help too.
No one not here legally can get any public funds at all.

@1dayatatimewhat percentage of that 9.1 million are receiving out of work, means tested benefits? You seem to be suggesting it’s 100% so I’d like to see official stats to back up this claim.

Maybe you're right or maybe you're wrong that they are in the main unemployable. I personally believe that given the right incentives that work pays significantly more than benefits then many would return to work.

But what is clear is that the fastest growing group in the economically inactive is the 16-24 age group and mostly due to ill health. All the statistics show that if young people start off being economically inactive then they are very likely to stay that way for life and also suffer greater ill health and deprivation. So if we don't start encouraging young people back into work as well as preventing it growing every year then the problem is just going to get worse.

If I were to be radical about this then I would raise the tax free threshold or cut taxes for the 18-30 age group, I would greatly reduce legal migration (then Amazon or the care home has a choice to pay higher wages to attract staff or run a reduced service/ go out of business etc).

How would I pay for this generational transfer - by introducing NI on pension income, making all pensioner benefits taxable, get rid of the triple lock, increase the pension age quicker.

I would vote for a party who cares over a party of self-interested chancers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz68d284dvyo

Money saving Reform buying and installing £75,000 of lamp post flags with council money.

164 Flags £16,400
Brackets, £32,800
Putting up and taking down the banners using a cherry picker and traffic management £16,400
Maintenance £10,000 for any maintenance costs.

Mansfield and Ashfield will 'benefit' from flags. These areas frequently top charts of high deprivation, particularly in education, health, employment, and income.

Voter "Can you help with the problems arising from deprivation please Reform?

Reform, "Of course. Have some flags."

I appreciate your detailed response. I've tried to find a definitive answer to this many times, but never seem to get a clear picture. The ' not all benefits are considered public funds' is interesting, didn't know that. I presume a child is considered British and thus, eligible for benefits in their own right, only if they are born here and not any accompanying children? Anyway, thank you.

@1dayatatime "How would I pay for this generational transfer - by introducing NI on pension income, making all pensioner benefits taxable, get rid of the triple lock, increase the pension age quicker."

What pensioner benefits aren't currently taxable please?
Would you also tax all investment income?

The Tories are looking a lot better now that their backwash is all heading to Reform. Not a votable party but definitely better than they were.

E.u countries are currently performing worse than the UK.

A child is considered British only if they have British citizenship- which can be from a parent, or currently if they apply and they have lived here, as a minor, for over 10 years.
I know we often think ‘born here’ but birthplace is nothing to do with our nationality laws- that’s currently the US though. Say you were born here to non British citizens and grew up and never applied till after 18 then you’d lose that availability and be starting your route to citizenship all over again if you wanted.
Edited to add that accompanying children aren’t entitled to anything - only maybe after 10 years if they get citizenship or ILR then - after being here on whichever route they were on.
There’s a lot of misunderstanding around immigration and benefits. And they get changed - normally tightened in the last 15 years or so - fairly regularly so it’s hard to be sure and the stuff above will probably soon be out of date.

Explain the maths and give an example then

Plenty of jobs for young people. Its just young people dont want them jobs.

Do you have a reliable source for this "fact"?

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/jobsandvacanciesintheuk/latest

If rich people leave, believe me, life will be much much harder for everyone. No jobs, no public services etc etc

The issue is if people don’t want to do these sorts of jobs, someone needs to.

Why should we believe you when you're unable to provide any research papers or stats to prove this, other than some calculations ChatGPT did for you?

So you’re not bothered about the economically inactive early pensioners or carers that you used in your stats earlier? Not sure where that leaves that argument then.
Anyway, you are concerned young people don’t work - so I checked the figures, for 16-24 and roughly:
over 5m are working
2.8m economically inactive but broken further down just around 900,000 out of work, employment, training.
They are the largest group unemployed but many factors contribute- less entry level jobs for one, AI and automation has removed or is removing basic job starts that many had. Grad jobs are disappointing for them too and we still have the zero hours issue for some.
So what jobs should they be doing that you said are available? And will this 900,000 plug all the gaps caused by stopping immigration? I’m not convinced I want them building my house, or prescribing my meds tbh just off the bat - they need support and training to be available- not just doing some fantasy job you haven’t yet named.
Sounds like a daily mail headline you nicked but do expand on it if you like.

More wealthy people just take their place, either a skilled immigrant or someone coming up through.

You re catastrophising, the numbers leaving are on par with numbers leaving the UK over many years.

If international tensions increase, they'll soon come running back from Dubai... hopefully finding they can no longer get NHS care, which is the first thing i'd take off anyone who leaves the UK for more than 2 years to avoid tax.

Only 12% of young people are NEET so the vast majority do want to work and study and are doing so.

Of those not working a high percentage struggle to afford to live in big cities where most vacancies are. Transport costs are high too. Skill shortages, mismatch of place and skill. Poor treatment of low paid workers. It's complex.

One of the barriers young people face in work is the stereotypes, like yours, that work against them.

So are you in the UK OP?

In which areas are EU countries performing worse than the UK? You are great at throwing out random statements without backing them up.

Right, the 9.1m figure has already been trashed...

A young person on UK, gets £400 per month, take home on NMW, take home pay is £1721 per month, plenty of incentive.

You need to research how nursing care is funded (by the tax payer in most cases) then you'll realise why wages cannot be increased by much if at all.

Good luck getting your tax cuts through, the demographic that is mostly to vote would have a 100% turnout....

Pension age is already too high, most live in poor health and not for too long after retirement, esp true if in manual work.