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Politics

The Irish Potato Famine

402 replies

MsAmerica · 05/08/2025 03:23

This would have been better in a history forum, but failing that, I'll try Politics. Interesting article - a book review, really.

What Made the Irish Famine So Deadly
The Great Hunger was a modern event, shaped by the belief that the poor are the authors of their own misery and that the market must be obeyed at all costs.
By Fintan O’Toole

There have been, in absolute terms, many deadlier famines, but as Amartya Sen, the eminent Indian scholar of the subject, concluded, in “no other famine in the world [was] the proportion of people killed . . . as large as in the Irish famines in the 1840s.” The pathogen that caused it was a fungus-like water mold called Phytophthora infestans. Its effect on the potato gives “Rot,” a vigorous and engaging new study of the Irish famine by the historian Padraic X. Scanlan, its title. The blight began to infect the crop across much of western and northern Europe in the summer of 1845. In the Netherlands, about sixty thousand people died in the consequent famine—a terrible loss, but a fraction of the mortality rate in Ireland. It is, oddly, easier to form a mental picture of what it might have been like to witness the Dutch tragedy than to truly convey the magnitude of the suffering in Ireland...

Even before the potato blight, there was a degree of hunger among the Irish rural underclass that seemed like an ugly remnant of a receding past. In 1837, two years after Alexis de Tocqueville published the first volume of “Democracy in America,” his lifelong collaborator, Gustave de Beaumont, went to Ireland, a country the two men had previously visited together. The book de Beaumont produced in 1839, “L’Irlande: Sociale, Politique et Religieuse,” was a grim companion piece to his friend’s largely optimistic vision of the future that was taking shape on the far side of the Atlantic. De Beaumont, a grandson by marriage of the Marquis de Lafayette, understood that, while the United States his ancestor had helped to create was a vigorous outgrowth of the British political traditions he and de Tocqueville so admired, Ireland was their poisoned fruit. America, he wrote, was “the land where destitution is the exception,” Ireland “the country where misery is the common rule.”

The problem was not that the land was barren: Scanlan records that, “in 1846, 3.3 million acres were planted with grain, and Irish farms raised more than 2.5 million cattle, 2.2 million sheep and 600,000 pigs.” But almost none of this food was available for consumption by the people who produced it. It was intended primarily for export to the burgeoning industrial cities of England. Thus, even Irish farmers who held ten or more acres and who would therefore have been regarded as well off, ate meat only at Christmas. “If an Irish family slaughtered their own pig, they would sell even the intestines and other offal,” Scanlan writes. He quotes the testimony of a farmer to a parliamentary commission, in 1836, that “he knew other leaseholders who had not eaten even an egg in six months. ‘We sell them now,’ he explained.”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/03/17/rot-padraic-x-scanlan-book-review

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noblegiraffe · 06/08/2025 09:33

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 09:28

it is a mathematical certainty

That Irish people currently living in Ireland are certain to have English blood going back to their great grandparents who lived through the famine?

OchonAgusOchonOh · 06/08/2025 09:34

MsAmerica · 06/08/2025 01:03

You're kidding. I thought it was the word "famine." It may not be used in Ireland, but I'm pretty sure the phrase is pretty widely used elsewhere. In any case, I could see someone disapproving because it was vague, but not because it was "offensive." The article is pretty clear about the responsibilities of people and policies, though.
Thanks for the information. Since the complainant didn't bother to be clear about her objection, there's no way I could have guessed. Next time, I'll try "tuber famine."

I explained the problem with the title much earlier in the thread. Yes, it is considered offensive as it is dismissive of the real cause. The term used in Irish is An Gorta Mór which translates as The Big (or great) Hunger. It is generally referred to as The Great Famine in English.

And no, don't use the term "tuber famine". Have some manners and use the preferred term.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 06/08/2025 09:37

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 08:21

Post edited to change ‘potato famine’ to ‘starvation’ as I didn’t realise it was a term no longer used

The word famine it fine. It's the trivialisation of the famine by referring to it as the potato famine that is not.

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 09:37

SingedElbow · 06/08/2025 09:29

I don’t think anyone is blaming British people alive in 2025 for anything other than the kind of historical ignorance and offensively neo-colonial thinking demonstrated by some, not all, posters on this thread.

If you are under-informed and continue to insist that your perspective is nonetheless legitimate, I blame you. If you use language people have asked you not to use, I blame you. If you find it incomprehensible that other colonised peoples look and have looked to Ireland and vice versa, I blame you.

Well, you are unnesseserily combative and aggresive

blame???

"if you are underinformed" - no body knows everything about everythin, we are all "underinformed" about most things. I could find a dozen things you are "underinformed" about in 30 seconds, as you could with me, or anyone else

"if you use language other people have asked you not to use" anyone can ask anyone else not to use any language, and I have come across many weird examples in my time! And "potato famine" is an accurate universally recognised description of what happened, and will never be "renamed" in scientific circles, where the main focus will always be on the blight itself - If you want to call it something else, go ahead, but you run the risk of impairing communication and causing confusion with other famines

"if you find it incomprehensible that other colonised people look to ireland" which colonised people? when? I think it is an important chapter with many lessons for the modern world, not least on the dangers of monoculture - but this really makes no sense.

Go about chucking your "blame" around all over the place, whatever, pointless and aggressive, and very much looks like you are trying to borrow victimhood

Lurina · 06/08/2025 09:39

But the blame game of who alive we should hold accountable in 2025 is ludicrous on multiple levels.

@RedToothBrush
Who on this thread is blaming anyone alive today for the Famine?
That’s in your own head.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 06/08/2025 09:39

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 08:48

nobody alive today or even 100 years ago would’ve witnessed it.

Not true actually.

100 years ago was 1925.

The famine period was 1845 to 1852.

Assuming a minimum age of ten at the start of that period in order to remember it (I can remember somethings from age 3), a small number of very elderly people would still be alive and remember it.

Just saying.

Plus there were smaller famines (An Gorta Beag or the Small Hunger) in the 1870's.

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 10:09

Lurina · 06/08/2025 09:30

@RedToothBrush
@JamesMacGill

You are wrong if you think people hold British peasants responsible. They do hold the British establishment, those in power at the time and beforehand, responsible to a large degree.

It’s really annoying to be told who you do or do not hold responsible —especially when you get it wrong. It’s also really annoying to be told move on, it’s too long ago to remember.
Please don’t minimise it, it is important. My grandad (and some of his children, not just grandkids, are still alive) grew up among people who lived through through the famine. Multiple people on this thread have told you that in generational terms it’s not that long ago, so why to you seek to dismiss when there is still a need to remember?

it’s not about trying to be a victim, it’s not about nationalism, it’s about the reality of what happened. Obviously we don’t think of it all the time, or even most of the time, but not being able to speak of its effects on a thread dedicated to it without these sort of accusations is too much. Please don’t be dismissive. Please don’t make up people’s motivations and think you get it right.

Edited

The 'British peasants' did not have the vote in 1840.

Many of them were illiterate. They were too busy trying not to starve to death themselves.

What exactly do you think they should have done about something they didn't know about and actually probably would have felt wasn't much worse than their own life experience if they did?!

Not to mention that your assumption that there wasn't resistance to the government at this time is historically lacking in information. Many actually did try and complain.

You might want to look up the Chartist movement. This was a movement for political reform in Britain between 1838 and 1857.

Let's talk about them.

They were trying to get the vote for every man over 21. They saw themselves as fighting against political corruption - attracting many who opposed wage cuts and unemployment. It also was strongly opposed to the 1834 Poor Law Amendment which forced the poor into workhouses rather than get relief in the community (this was one of the key things that made the death toll of the famine considerably higher if you recall my previous post).

I have an advert for a demonstration in front of me for reference. It states

To the working men of London.
Fellow men - The press having misrepresented and vilified us and our intentions, the Demonstration Committee therefore consider it to be their duty to state that the grievances of us (the Working Classes) are deep and our demands just. We and our families are pining in misery, want and starvation! We demand a fair day's wage for a fair day's work! We are the slaves of capital - we demand protection to put labour. We are political serfs - we demand to be free. We therefore invite all well disposed to join in our peaceful procession.

This gives you an idea of where they were coming from.

The Chartists were particularly active in the North of England.

In 1842 a petition of over THREE MILLION signatures was presented to parliament (the Chartists weren't a niche movement. They very much were a massive movement). It was ignored. This was the second petition that had been presented.

In 1842 there was a depression which led to strikes. There was serious violence. The government deployed soldiers to deal with it. Chartist leaders were arrested. Some were transported.

In 1848, following news of a revolution in Paris there were bread riots in Manchester, Glasgow and Dublin.

New legislation was brought in making certain acts seditious - "proposing to make war against the Queen, or seeking to intimidate or overawe both Houses of Parliament" or openly speaking or writing "to that effect". This was punishable by death or transportation. 100,000 extra special constables were recruited ahead of a planned peaceful Chartist march. This lead to the march being cancelled as it was clear it would only lead to significant violence and trouble.

After this point in 1848 the movement went into decline. Of course this is right in the middle of the famine, but it highlights just how afraid the population were at this point and just how disempowered they felt in the face of the measures imposed on them by government. They took felt very much oppressed. They were not just fighting for the English. They were fighting against the general laws that were being used against all working classes.

How do I know all this?

I'll give you a clue. I really like family history and a couple of people have popped up as Chartist leaders.

Of course all this knowledge about the unrest across both the UK and Ireland, resistance to it and the Draconian response by the government, to resist it is lost to time and the consciousness of so many who want to talk about how evil the English are.

This is what fucking pisses me off. Damn ignorant tropes which do not remotely reflect the period.

noblegiraffe · 06/08/2025 10:11

The poster literally said no one holds the British peasants responsible.

Lurina · 06/08/2025 10:14

I think you mis-read @RedToothBrush .

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 10:25

noblegiraffe · 06/08/2025 10:11

The poster literally said no one holds the British peasants responsible.

And yet we still get blanket ' the English are responsible' rah rah rah.

No the English are not fucking responsible. It's lazy nationalist bullshit.

Lurina · 06/08/2025 10:45

I object to those accusations.

What I said was those in power at the time and beforehand were responsible for their part of it.

Not a blanket ‘the English’.
Not people alive today.

Lurina · 06/08/2025 11:11

@RedToothBrush
In my earlier post directed to you and a pp, to which you objected so strongly, I also said
It’s really annoying to be told who you do or do not hold responsible —especially when you get it wrong.

This is exactly what I meant.

MollyRover · 06/08/2025 11:13

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 08:19

Plenty of Brits were living in squalor and hungry if that helps.

Genuine question but at what point will people move on from the starvation? It was 100 years before WW2 even started. And yet I see WW2 mentioned a lot less and with a lot less bitterness on here than the potato famine.

There’s nothing that we can do about it now, it just feels like once in a while a person feels suddenly aggrieved and wants to vent by bringing it up all over again under the guise of ‘examining history’.

Ireland is thankfully now a prosperous country with more advantages in many ways than the UK, and NI has the internal power to become completely independent at any time it chooses. It was a very tragic event but no different to tragic events in the past suffered by many countries.

Edited

Some education on the topic in the history curriculum would be good. Would go some way towards reparations if people didn’t refer to it incorrectly or actually knew anything about about it at all

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 11:16

MollyRover · 06/08/2025 11:13

Some education on the topic in the history curriculum would be good. Would go some way towards reparations if people didn’t refer to it incorrectly or actually knew anything about about it at all

History topics have to be selected. My school chooses China over Ireland, because it is less complicated, and students tend to get higher marks. My children's school chose the American west. No body can learn everything. Sadly, almost any history you look into is going to involve large scale brutality and trauma.

PhilippaGeorgiou · 06/08/2025 11:26

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 10:25

And yet we still get blanket ' the English are responsible' rah rah rah.

No the English are not fucking responsible. It's lazy nationalist bullshit.

And yet the only person who appears to have said that is you.

IfNot · 06/08/2025 11:56

I remember learning about the Chartists in GCSE history Red Tooth Brush. It was interesting to me coming from a background of unionists and working class agitators! I agree that history of always a lot more complicated than it is presented through modern eyes. I don’t have skin in the game regarding Ireland ( although I have some interesting Irish roots in terms some of my immigrant ancestors wound up there and became prominent in the Republican movement) but we are most of us a mash up of various peasants and few of us would have had any real power.

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 11:58

PhilippaGeorgiou · 06/08/2025 11:26

And yet the only person who appears to have said that is you.

I think ‘the British’ is generally shorthand for ‘the British who did this specific thing at that time’ in the way we say ‘the Germans’ during WW2 or whatever. I personally don’t find it offensive.

CarpeVitam · 06/08/2025 12:43

LovingLimePeer · 05/08/2025 09:01

My Irish aunt often talks about the increased incidence of psychotic disorders since the famine. My own family is very affected.

It only slightly addresses epigenetics but there is a very good book about the intergenerational impact of trauma called 'it didn't start with you'. It's a very interesting read.

Agreed. A fascinating, insightful book.

RosaMundi27 · 06/08/2025 13:47

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Lurina · 06/08/2025 14:35

I sometimes wonder if it's a weird combination of Catholic guilt and its corrective: seof righteousness. Also - Ireland is, and has been, quite anti-semitic. Somehow, in the national mind there is a belief that Israel is like Imperial Britain, and the Palestinians (because "revolutionaries") are like the Irish freedom fighters of the struggle for independence.
That they are wrong on both counts never seems to occur to them.

Are you Irish @RosaMundi27, or are you just making things up now too?

I’m Irish. I’m not particularly religious.
I’m not anti-semitic, why would I be?
I absolutely do not support Hamas, what happened on Oct 7th was horrIfic.
(I think similarly about any terrorists, IRA, loyalist terrorists, absolutely no support for any of them, despise them all.
‘Because revolutionaries’ my eye. The vast, vast majority of Irish people are not militant republicans you know! )

Human rights violations in Palestine is what most Irish people have long been concerned with. I would like the civilians and children in Gaza to stop being bombed and starved. I don’t think that’s being self-righteous. Peace was and is the aim, though it’s all such a complete disaster now.

grizzlyoldbear · 06/08/2025 15:01

Wow, this thread’s really gone weird. If your Irish ancestry means your family was directly affected, maybe others should have the grace to witness/read these accounts rather than trying to defend against them, which is very odd.
I've learnt a lot reading this and I'm grateful.

Treesnthings · 06/08/2025 16:20

@grizzlyoldbear Thank you for this - I didn't bother posting, it seemed pointless but you have encapsulated the spirit of what is actually a simple but important request from Irish people on this thread.

Lavenderflower · 06/08/2025 16:26

It appears that discussions about historical events often evoke discomfort in some individuals, leading them to resist or dismiss such conversations. This discomfort seems to manifest in the minimisation of past injustices and the suggestion that affected communities should simply move on or get over it.
Such responses are not only dismissive but also reflect a misunderstanding of how history continues to shape the present. The notion that no one alive today was affected ignores the well-documented reality of intergenerational trauma. This refers to the transmission of the psychological and social effects of historical injustices across generations.The legacies of atrocities such as famines, colonisation, slavery, war, and systemic discrimination do not end with the passing of those who directly experienced them. They persist in social structures, cultural memory, and the lived experiences of descendants.

grizzlyoldbear · 06/08/2025 17:35

It’s a really odd and interesting reaction. Maybe it’s threatening a sense of identity, or defending against something? I’m not sure what, because no one’s blaming anyone, just openly discussing history. I didn’t even know half of this until Sinéad O’Connor sang, “Let’s talk about the potato famine and how it wasn’t really a potato famine...” I miss her.

PermanentTemporary · 06/08/2025 17:44

Got to page 2 and I actually choose not to read any more due to some of the posts asserting extraordinary reasons for the Great Hunger, showing all the historical knowledge of, ironically, a potato.

I would like to think that some of the posters on this thread would, rather than posting any more, read the book, or a range of books, on the death by hunger of a huge proportion of the Irish population less than 200 years ago. Maybe the thread became much less distressing in later pages. I’ve read some books about it, but not the ones posted near the top, so thank you OP.

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