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Politics

The Irish Potato Famine

402 replies

MsAmerica · 05/08/2025 03:23

This would have been better in a history forum, but failing that, I'll try Politics. Interesting article - a book review, really.

What Made the Irish Famine So Deadly
The Great Hunger was a modern event, shaped by the belief that the poor are the authors of their own misery and that the market must be obeyed at all costs.
By Fintan O’Toole

There have been, in absolute terms, many deadlier famines, but as Amartya Sen, the eminent Indian scholar of the subject, concluded, in “no other famine in the world [was] the proportion of people killed . . . as large as in the Irish famines in the 1840s.” The pathogen that caused it was a fungus-like water mold called Phytophthora infestans. Its effect on the potato gives “Rot,” a vigorous and engaging new study of the Irish famine by the historian Padraic X. Scanlan, its title. The blight began to infect the crop across much of western and northern Europe in the summer of 1845. In the Netherlands, about sixty thousand people died in the consequent famine—a terrible loss, but a fraction of the mortality rate in Ireland. It is, oddly, easier to form a mental picture of what it might have been like to witness the Dutch tragedy than to truly convey the magnitude of the suffering in Ireland...

Even before the potato blight, there was a degree of hunger among the Irish rural underclass that seemed like an ugly remnant of a receding past. In 1837, two years after Alexis de Tocqueville published the first volume of “Democracy in America,” his lifelong collaborator, Gustave de Beaumont, went to Ireland, a country the two men had previously visited together. The book de Beaumont produced in 1839, “L’Irlande: Sociale, Politique et Religieuse,” was a grim companion piece to his friend’s largely optimistic vision of the future that was taking shape on the far side of the Atlantic. De Beaumont, a grandson by marriage of the Marquis de Lafayette, understood that, while the United States his ancestor had helped to create was a vigorous outgrowth of the British political traditions he and de Tocqueville so admired, Ireland was their poisoned fruit. America, he wrote, was “the land where destitution is the exception,” Ireland “the country where misery is the common rule.”

The problem was not that the land was barren: Scanlan records that, “in 1846, 3.3 million acres were planted with grain, and Irish farms raised more than 2.5 million cattle, 2.2 million sheep and 600,000 pigs.” But almost none of this food was available for consumption by the people who produced it. It was intended primarily for export to the burgeoning industrial cities of England. Thus, even Irish farmers who held ten or more acres and who would therefore have been regarded as well off, ate meat only at Christmas. “If an Irish family slaughtered their own pig, they would sell even the intestines and other offal,” Scanlan writes. He quotes the testimony of a farmer to a parliamentary commission, in 1836, that “he knew other leaseholders who had not eaten even an egg in six months. ‘We sell them now,’ he explained.”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/03/17/rot-padraic-x-scanlan-book-review

OP posts:
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MsAmerica · 06/08/2025 01:03

Lurina · 05/08/2025 23:24

The word potato in the title is what’s causing problems. Seriously, it’s not a joke.
ETA they don’t like it because this was not just a natural disaster for which people and policies bore no responsibility. It wasn’t just because of blight.
That’s why people don’t like ‘potato famine’, a term that’s never used in Ireland btw.

Edited

You're kidding. I thought it was the word "famine." It may not be used in Ireland, but I'm pretty sure the phrase is pretty widely used elsewhere. In any case, I could see someone disapproving because it was vague, but not because it was "offensive." The article is pretty clear about the responsibilities of people and policies, though.
Thanks for the information. Since the complainant didn't bother to be clear about her objection, there's no way I could have guessed. Next time, I'll try "tuber famine."

OP posts:
PhilippaGeorgiou · 06/08/2025 07:52

MsAmerica · 05/08/2025 22:09

Okay. "The French Foie Gras Shortage." Would you prefer that?

Was that actually meant to be funny, or did you intend to spit on the memories of those who died in the Great Famine? The article you are so proud of doesn't use that term, but you do, and you have been told why it is offensive, and you think it's a joke. And then double down when it is again pointed out how offensive it is.

Mochudubh · 06/08/2025 08:14

I suggest you actually read the many well thought out contributions of other posters to the thread THAT YOU STARTED to understand the situation was more complex than potato blight.

To borrow a phrase from another board.

It's not all about you potatoes.

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 08:19

MollyRover · 05/08/2025 06:46

It wasn’t a famine, there was plenty of food but this was exported by the British for profit. Ethnic cleansing is more appropriate.

Plenty of Brits were living in squalor and hungry if that helps.

Genuine question but at what point will people move on from the starvation? It was 100 years before WW2 even started. And yet I see WW2 mentioned a lot less and with a lot less bitterness on here than the potato famine.

There’s nothing that we can do about it now, it just feels like once in a while a person feels suddenly aggrieved and wants to vent by bringing it up all over again under the guise of ‘examining history’.

Ireland is thankfully now a prosperous country with more advantages in many ways than the UK, and NI has the internal power to become completely independent at any time it chooses. It was a very tragic event but no different to tragic events in the past suffered by many countries.

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 08:21

Post edited to change ‘potato famine’ to ‘starvation’ as I didn’t realise it was a term no longer used

SingedElbow · 06/08/2025 08:22

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 08:21

Post edited to change ‘potato famine’ to ‘starvation’ as I didn’t realise it was a term no longer used

It’s not that it’s ’no longer used’, it’s that it’s so often been used to trivialise and misrepresent. It’s never been used by Irish people.

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 08:23

SingedElbow · 06/08/2025 08:22

It’s not that it’s ’no longer used’, it’s that it’s so often been used to trivialise and misrepresent. It’s never been used by Irish people.

Yes that’s what I meant. It’s no longer used for the reasons you gave.

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 08:24

There is no direction to direct bitterness and blame - we are all related to people who starved, we are all related to people who caused it. None of us were there. The anger has no one to target. it is just silly

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 08:28

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 08:24

There is no direction to direct bitterness and blame - we are all related to people who starved, we are all related to people who caused it. None of us were there. The anger has no one to target. it is just silly

Edited

Yes, including me, as I have dual Irish/English heritage.

I just see a lot of posts about the starvation which really just seek to flagellate the Brits and rake over once again how awful the British are, despite the fact most of them would’ve been peasants themselves at the time and have zero idea of what was going on, and nobody alive today or even 100 years ago would’ve witnessed it.

I’m not saying to disregard history, and some discussion is definitely interesting and worthwhile, but these do very much feel like bashing threads in disguise at least some of the time.

I don’t disagree that it was either a negligent or enforced starvation by the ruling classes in both countries.

DeafLeppard · 06/08/2025 08:37

SingedElbow · 06/08/2025 08:22

It’s not that it’s ’no longer used’, it’s that it’s so often been used to trivialise and misrepresent. It’s never been used by Irish people.

I would disagree with that. I grew up in Northern Ireland and it was absolutely called the potato famine in the vernacular. I can’t remember what we called it when we were studying it at school.

I know that Northern Ireland comes with its own baggage when talking about Irish history, but I don’t think anyone using the phrase “potato famine” was using it as a means to absolve any sections of society from responsibility. TBH people didn’t think that deeply!

Zuve · 06/08/2025 08:43

my great great great grandad came over in 1845 from Dublin to work on the new railways near Manchester. Here he is...

The Irish Potato Famine
RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 08:48

nobody alive today or even 100 years ago would’ve witnessed it.

Not true actually.

100 years ago was 1925.

The famine period was 1845 to 1852.

Assuming a minimum age of ten at the start of that period in order to remember it (I can remember somethings from age 3), a small number of very elderly people would still be alive and remember it.

Just saying.

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 08:54

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 08:48

nobody alive today or even 100 years ago would’ve witnessed it.

Not true actually.

100 years ago was 1925.

The famine period was 1845 to 1852.

Assuming a minimum age of ten at the start of that period in order to remember it (I can remember somethings from age 3), a small number of very elderly people would still be alive and remember it.

Just saying.

A small number of elderly people would’ve been the exception rather than the rule. I think you know what I meant.

noblegiraffe · 06/08/2025 09:01

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 08:28

Yes, including me, as I have dual Irish/English heritage.

I just see a lot of posts about the starvation which really just seek to flagellate the Brits and rake over once again how awful the British are, despite the fact most of them would’ve been peasants themselves at the time and have zero idea of what was going on, and nobody alive today or even 100 years ago would’ve witnessed it.

I’m not saying to disregard history, and some discussion is definitely interesting and worthwhile, but these do very much feel like bashing threads in disguise at least some of the time.

I don’t disagree that it was either a negligent or enforced starvation by the ruling classes in both countries.

No one is blaming random English peasants for starving Irish. But to pretend it was merely a ‘tragic event’, like an earthquake or an outbreak of plague when there were people making deliberate decisions that made it far worse. And they weren’t ’whoops we made a decision with unintended consequences’ either, they were ‘we don’t give a shit if Irish people are starving’ decisions.

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 09:02

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 08:54

A small number of elderly people would’ve been the exception rather than the rule. I think you know what I meant.

No I dont.

A small number still being alive means there is still living memory and direct connection to the famine. Plenty of other people will still have heard first hand accounts.

My great great grandfather died in 1919. That's only six years previously. And he was born in 1820 so was 25 at the start of the famine period. My grandmothers oldest sibling would potentially have remembered him. My grandmothers youngest siblings is still alive. She could have heard plenty which is only second hand about her grandfather's experiences.

It's not something as distant as you are trying to make out. I disagree with the point you are trying to make out.

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 09:02

noblegiraffe · 06/08/2025 09:01

No one is blaming random English peasants for starving Irish. But to pretend it was merely a ‘tragic event’, like an earthquake or an outbreak of plague when there were people making deliberate decisions that made it far worse. And they weren’t ’whoops we made a decision with unintended consequences’ either, they were ‘we don’t give a shit if Irish people are starving’ decisions.

I think they are, I think the anger simmers quite a lot under a minority of Irish people but what’s the answer? All they can do is continue to vent, which doesn’t seem to make them feel better. An apology or whatever, will never be enough. Nobody can change the past. I absolutely agree it wasn’t an act of God, it was deliberate starvation.

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 09:06

noblegiraffe · 06/08/2025 09:01

No one is blaming random English peasants for starving Irish. But to pretend it was merely a ‘tragic event’, like an earthquake or an outbreak of plague when there were people making deliberate decisions that made it far worse. And they weren’t ’whoops we made a decision with unintended consequences’ either, they were ‘we don’t give a shit if Irish people are starving’ decisions.

No point being angry with dead people. Yes it was outrageous, yes there is a lot to learn from it, plant pathology and human nature have not changed. but for modern irish to blame and be angry with modern english is pathetic. both are decended from from the perpurtrators, both are related to the victims, neither were alive at the time

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 09:08

JamesMacGill · 06/08/2025 09:02

I think they are, I think the anger simmers quite a lot under a minority of Irish people but what’s the answer? All they can do is continue to vent, which doesn’t seem to make them feel better. An apology or whatever, will never be enough. Nobody can change the past. I absolutely agree it wasn’t an act of God, it was deliberate starvation.

It does come down to Irish nationalism at this point in history.

The British are never going to be able to do or say anything that's going to change that.

Realistically if I paid reparations (including to myself!) it wouldn't change anything.

It's about present day politics. And politics frequently tries to control the past in order to control the future.

That's why I stress that a lot of survivors are actually British, because it has become something of a nonsense. And that many of the British alive at the time, were busy trying not to starve to death themselves.

PhilippaGeorgiou · 06/08/2025 09:13

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 09:06

No point being angry with dead people. Yes it was outrageous, yes there is a lot to learn from it, plant pathology and human nature have not changed. but for modern irish to blame and be angry with modern english is pathetic. both are decended from from the perpurtrators, both are related to the victims, neither were alive at the time

Let's "whitewash" all history then shall we? Placing facts in their historical context and assigning blame where it actually lies is not anger or venting or ranting - it is intelligence. You do not learn from a past that is fictionalised. Nobody "blamed" the English - the English working class were in no better a position, they simply were needed more by those in power and with wealth. Food to them, even in poor quantities, fuelled the mills. Food to the Irish, where it was grown, did not. And if you cannot see any applicable learning from that to many events around the world, whether intentional or natural, then you aren't paying attention.

That isn't the point though, really. Becoming bored of promulgating one set of disinformations, some posters have found a new thread to be goady on. We see you.

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 09:17

PhilippaGeorgiou · 06/08/2025 09:13

Let's "whitewash" all history then shall we? Placing facts in their historical context and assigning blame where it actually lies is not anger or venting or ranting - it is intelligence. You do not learn from a past that is fictionalised. Nobody "blamed" the English - the English working class were in no better a position, they simply were needed more by those in power and with wealth. Food to them, even in poor quantities, fuelled the mills. Food to the Irish, where it was grown, did not. And if you cannot see any applicable learning from that to many events around the world, whether intentional or natural, then you aren't paying attention.

That isn't the point though, really. Becoming bored of promulgating one set of disinformations, some posters have found a new thread to be goady on. We see you.

No of course not, be factual, be investigative, shine a light on the ugly truth - just dont take out the understandable sadness and outrage on people alive today, who were not personally complicit. We are all of us related to both sides of this disaster

noblegiraffe · 06/08/2025 09:24

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 09:17

No of course not, be factual, be investigative, shine a light on the ugly truth - just dont take out the understandable sadness and outrage on people alive today, who were not personally complicit. We are all of us related to both sides of this disaster

Have you got evidence that we are all related to both sides of this? I mean, it's not that far back in history.

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 09:28

noblegiraffe · 06/08/2025 09:24

Have you got evidence that we are all related to both sides of this? I mean, it's not that far back in history.

it is a mathematical certainty

SingedElbow · 06/08/2025 09:29

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 09:17

No of course not, be factual, be investigative, shine a light on the ugly truth - just dont take out the understandable sadness and outrage on people alive today, who were not personally complicit. We are all of us related to both sides of this disaster

I don’t think anyone is blaming British people alive in 2025 for anything other than the kind of historical ignorance and offensively neo-colonial thinking demonstrated by some, not all, posters on this thread.

If you are under-informed and continue to insist that your perspective is nonetheless legitimate, I blame you. If you use language people have asked you not to use, I blame you. If you find it incomprehensible that other colonised peoples look and have looked to Ireland and vice versa, I blame you.

Lurina · 06/08/2025 09:30

@RedToothBrush
@JamesMacGill

You are wrong if you think people hold British peasants responsible. They do hold the British establishment, those in power at the time and beforehand, responsible to a large degree.

It’s really annoying to be told who you do or do not hold responsible —especially when you get it wrong. It’s also really annoying to be told move on, it’s too long ago to remember.
Please don’t minimise it, it is important. My grandad (and some of his children, not just grandkids, are still alive) grew up among people who lived through through the famine. Multiple people on this thread have told you that in generational terms it’s not that long ago, so why to you seek to dismiss when there is still a need to remember?

it’s not about trying to be a victim, it’s not about nationalism, it’s about the reality of what happened. Obviously we don’t think of it all the time, or even most of the time, but not being able to speak of its effects on a thread dedicated to it without these sort of accusations is too much. Please don’t be dismissive. Please don’t make up people’s motivations and think you get it right.

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2025 09:32

Lemniscate8 · 06/08/2025 09:28

it is a mathematical certainty

Well yes. The genetic isopoint is around 1066 for anyone with English heritage.

However I'm still not responsible for even my father's actions regardless of your argument here.

No one is saying we whitewash the past. We acknowledge it and we say it's not ok.

But the blame game of who alive we should hold accountable in 2025 is ludicrous on multiple levels.