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Politics

The Irish Potato Famine

402 replies

MsAmerica · 05/08/2025 03:23

This would have been better in a history forum, but failing that, I'll try Politics. Interesting article - a book review, really.

What Made the Irish Famine So Deadly
The Great Hunger was a modern event, shaped by the belief that the poor are the authors of their own misery and that the market must be obeyed at all costs.
By Fintan O’Toole

There have been, in absolute terms, many deadlier famines, but as Amartya Sen, the eminent Indian scholar of the subject, concluded, in “no other famine in the world [was] the proportion of people killed . . . as large as in the Irish famines in the 1840s.” The pathogen that caused it was a fungus-like water mold called Phytophthora infestans. Its effect on the potato gives “Rot,” a vigorous and engaging new study of the Irish famine by the historian Padraic X. Scanlan, its title. The blight began to infect the crop across much of western and northern Europe in the summer of 1845. In the Netherlands, about sixty thousand people died in the consequent famine—a terrible loss, but a fraction of the mortality rate in Ireland. It is, oddly, easier to form a mental picture of what it might have been like to witness the Dutch tragedy than to truly convey the magnitude of the suffering in Ireland...

Even before the potato blight, there was a degree of hunger among the Irish rural underclass that seemed like an ugly remnant of a receding past. In 1837, two years after Alexis de Tocqueville published the first volume of “Democracy in America,” his lifelong collaborator, Gustave de Beaumont, went to Ireland, a country the two men had previously visited together. The book de Beaumont produced in 1839, “L’Irlande: Sociale, Politique et Religieuse,” was a grim companion piece to his friend’s largely optimistic vision of the future that was taking shape on the far side of the Atlantic. De Beaumont, a grandson by marriage of the Marquis de Lafayette, understood that, while the United States his ancestor had helped to create was a vigorous outgrowth of the British political traditions he and de Tocqueville so admired, Ireland was their poisoned fruit. America, he wrote, was “the land where destitution is the exception,” Ireland “the country where misery is the common rule.”

The problem was not that the land was barren: Scanlan records that, “in 1846, 3.3 million acres were planted with grain, and Irish farms raised more than 2.5 million cattle, 2.2 million sheep and 600,000 pigs.” But almost none of this food was available for consumption by the people who produced it. It was intended primarily for export to the burgeoning industrial cities of England. Thus, even Irish farmers who held ten or more acres and who would therefore have been regarded as well off, ate meat only at Christmas. “If an Irish family slaughtered their own pig, they would sell even the intestines and other offal,” Scanlan writes. He quotes the testimony of a farmer to a parliamentary commission, in 1836, that “he knew other leaseholders who had not eaten even an egg in six months. ‘We sell them now,’ he explained.”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/03/17/rot-padraic-x-scanlan-book-review

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SingedElbow · 05/08/2025 08:16

Lemniscate8 · 05/08/2025 08:13

But this was a moncrop - it doesn't matter who you blame for that, the fact is, it was a moncrop, and wiped out by a single disease burning through it - a lesson for today.

It’s not in any way a ‘lesson for today’. There were ^no
other options^. Do you know how tiny the average holding was?

GiantTeddyIsTired · 05/08/2025 08:18

SingedElbow · 05/08/2025 08:12

Maybe just stop opining about how a largely illiterate peasant population of subsistence farmers, who could only feed themselves on tiny holdings by monocropping, should have diversified and practised family planning. Maybe they could have Googled.

Your arrogance is truly colonial. Congratulations.

I'm not blaming them - but pretending those things are not a factor is bizarre!

Op1n1onsPlease · 05/08/2025 08:20

GiantTeddyIsTired · 05/08/2025 07:57

It's not as simple as big bad English starving the Irish by continuing to buy the grain - exported by Irish farmers so they could pay their rent, although of course that's probably the primary issue - although, if they'd stopped selling the grain (and meat etc) then they'd be evicted, which obviously brings other major issues - the entire landlord system was the issue here - although tenant farmer situations are very common everywhere (including the UK) so there was more going on here to cause the catastrophic collapse.

Mono-crops are generally a bad idea, Catholicism resulting in massive families, that were already barely surviving on what they could grow, the subdivision of family plots over time with inheritance making it harder to grow enough for a family - it wasn't one thing. It was everything happening all together

Wow this is quite embarrassing.

Catholicism caused big families did it? FYI average family sizes in England and Ireland were the same in this period - contraception wasn’t readily available for anyone.

Lemniscate8 · 05/08/2025 08:22

SingedElbow · 05/08/2025 08:16

It’s not in any way a ‘lesson for today’. There were ^no
other options^. Do you know how tiny the average holding was?

it was a moncrop, doesn't matter how or why, are you saying it wasn't? The blight wouldn't have taken hold if it wasn't. I dont understand what you are disputing. The population was relying on one crop, one cultivar of one crop, one crop all of which was susepticble to the same disease, and so there was no food security at all

SingedElbow · 05/08/2025 08:23

GiantTeddyIsTired · 05/08/2025 08:18

I'm not blaming them - but pretending those things are not a factor is bizarre!

And that kind of arrogant ignorance of the actual situation on the ground is partly why so many died. Why in earth would you throw your offensively ill-informed 21st c opinions about a complex situation leading to mass starvation around on the internet rather than keeping schtum and reading?

Lavenderflower · 05/08/2025 08:25

upandleftthenright · 05/08/2025 07:20

Why are the Irish so obsessed with linking themselves to what is going on in Gaza? It’s like an obsession to claim current victimhood. Ireland is a thriving and prosperous country. Understand and acknowledge your history but don’t go down the path of being victims and aligning with horrors elsewhere. I see this mentality creeping into Scotland and it’s so destructive. Trying to make highland clearances a thing and that Scotland is owed something as victims. It’s a self defeating mindset. It’s not of the same equivalence to war elsewhere.

This is an incentive comment. I think Irish are entitled to speak about their history - even though the famine happened a long time ago, it has had some impacts.

Lavenderflower · 05/08/2025 08:31

Slimtoddy · 05/08/2025 07:39

I often wonder about long term impacts. The possible epigenetics at play today. My great grandfather was born around the end of the Great Hunger - my parents and grandparents were old when they had kids which is why it's only a couple of generations back for me.

I think there are lingering impacts. I found something recently from an academic who is exploring this. Will try and find a will share.

I don't any information to hand but I do remember reading that the famine triggered mental issues in the following generations.

Yellowbirdcage · 05/08/2025 08:32

The past is a different country.
I hope we do learn from history but also hate the modern tendency to crave victim status based on nationality or ethnicity. I’m quite certain my English ancestors had no more power to change things back then than anyone’s Irish ancestors. Even if someone’s ancestors were the most despicable and greedy landlords it’s not their fault. It’s just history to be studied and understood.

Lemniscate8 · 05/08/2025 08:34

SingedElbow · 05/08/2025 08:23

And that kind of arrogant ignorance of the actual situation on the ground is partly why so many died. Why in earth would you throw your offensively ill-informed 21st c opinions about a complex situation leading to mass starvation around on the internet rather than keeping schtum and reading?

why are you so angry? People are discussing a famine 200 years ago - you didn't lose anyone you love, no one alive today did anything to cause this. CHILL! you are trying to prevent and obstruct people just getting on and talking about it

3luckystars · 05/08/2025 08:40

There was a potato blight in other European countries at that time too but it wasn’t as bad because they had other food sources, whereas the English government took the rest of the food out of the country so the Irish starved. It did happen.

It is good that it’s been written about but it will never happen again.

Slimtoddy · 05/08/2025 08:40

It wasn't that long ago. As I said previously my Great Grandfather was born at the end of the Great Hunger.

To those who think we are playing the victim I ask you - do you not think there is value in knowing a bit of history and contemplating it in today's context?

There are ongoing impacts associated with The Great Hunger. For example:

Ireland's population in 1840 was around 8.2 million
UK population in 1840 was around 26.7 million
Current UK population is around 67 million
The UK's population growth from 1840 to 2024: 67 million ÷ 26.7 million = 2.51x growth (151% increase)
If Ireland had grown at the same rate: 8.2 million × 2.51 = 20.6 million
This is roughly 3x Ireland's current population

Lemniscate8 · 05/08/2025 08:41

Slimtoddy · 05/08/2025 07:39

I often wonder about long term impacts. The possible epigenetics at play today. My great grandfather was born around the end of the Great Hunger - my parents and grandparents were old when they had kids which is why it's only a couple of generations back for me.

I think there are lingering impacts. I found something recently from an academic who is exploring this. Will try and find a will share.

Epigentics has a limited range,

3 generations, and only down the female line, as far as is understood to date.

Which make sense, as there would be no point in any irish child being born adapted to famine situations today, because they are not in that situation-

the whole point of epigentics is you are born ready to face what your immediate ascendants have faced/ are facing.

I suspect any longer term effects are cultural, not biological. Epigentics isn't well understood yet, but its existance does have a practical application, so without that, there would be no evolutionary reason for it to develop

GiantTeddyIsTired · 05/08/2025 08:43

Op1n1onsPlease · 05/08/2025 08:20

Wow this is quite embarrassing.

Catholicism caused big families did it? FYI average family sizes in England and Ireland were the same in this period - contraception wasn’t readily available for anyone.

That is not my understanding. Especially in rural areas. English families were smaller. Contraception not available, no, but these people were farmers - do you really think they didn't have a bit of an inkling about how babies are made?

Also one of the reasons for the small plots I mentioned - in Ireland, inheritance was generally spread between all male heirs (although yes, it's a tenancy with no right of inheritance, and by the great hunger it wasn't as common due to landlords attempting to consolidate land). In England, just to the eldest (except in Kent, weirdly enough)

Lemniscate8 · 05/08/2025 08:45

Slimtoddy · 05/08/2025 08:40

It wasn't that long ago. As I said previously my Great Grandfather was born at the end of the Great Hunger.

To those who think we are playing the victim I ask you - do you not think there is value in knowing a bit of history and contemplating it in today's context?

There are ongoing impacts associated with The Great Hunger. For example:

Ireland's population in 1840 was around 8.2 million
UK population in 1840 was around 26.7 million
Current UK population is around 67 million
The UK's population growth from 1840 to 2024: 67 million ÷ 26.7 million = 2.51x growth (151% increase)
If Ireland had grown at the same rate: 8.2 million × 2.51 = 20.6 million
This is roughly 3x Ireland's current population

I think there are irish genes all over the world!

Lemniscate8 · 05/08/2025 08:47

3luckystars · 05/08/2025 08:40

There was a potato blight in other European countries at that time too but it wasn’t as bad because they had other food sources, whereas the English government took the rest of the food out of the country so the Irish starved. It did happen.

It is good that it’s been written about but it will never happen again.

The english governemnt and various charities sent food relief to ireland, but it was the wrong sort, and not effectively distributed - as I said lots to learn from

noblegiraffe · 05/08/2025 08:50

Presumably the people wittering on about monocrops know why the Irish relied purely on potatoes for survival and couldn't diversify their diet?

And it's not because they didn't know that relying purely on potatoes was risky. It's because it's the only crop they could grow in sufficient quantities on the small amount of land available to them for their own food because the British took the rest.

What's the lesson to be learned there?

childofthe607080s · 05/08/2025 08:51

@3luckystars“it will never happen again”

I think on this you are very wrong

I think as climate change makes food supply more unstable it will happen unless we all sit and think together about future food security

we have enough food to feed everyone but people still starve even outside of war zones. The rich take it or store it or throw it away

Lemniscate8 · 05/08/2025 08:51

Op1n1onsPlease · 05/08/2025 08:20

Wow this is quite embarrassing.

Catholicism caused big families did it? FYI average family sizes in England and Ireland were the same in this period - contraception wasn’t readily available for anyone.

why are you calling names? saying "embarassing" is just a meaningless MN put down. This is a talk about a recent historical disasater, but not one that anyone present here was involved in, influenced by or responsible for. Cant we just share our interest, and our different sources of information, and discuss, like normal adults, without this playground name calling?

Lemniscate8 · 05/08/2025 08:52

childofthe607080s · 05/08/2025 08:51

@3luckystars“it will never happen again”

I think on this you are very wrong

I think as climate change makes food supply more unstable it will happen unless we all sit and think together about future food security

we have enough food to feed everyone but people still starve even outside of war zones. The rich take it or store it or throw it away

This is why learning from history is so important - basic plant pathology does not change, basic human nature does not change

Straycats · 05/08/2025 08:53

SingedElbow · 05/08/2025 07:04

Please remove your offensive thread title.

Why? It’s true, the English ruling classes subjugated the Irish population, profit above lives.

Lemniscate8 · 05/08/2025 08:54

noblegiraffe · 05/08/2025 08:50

Presumably the people wittering on about monocrops know why the Irish relied purely on potatoes for survival and couldn't diversify their diet?

And it's not because they didn't know that relying purely on potatoes was risky. It's because it's the only crop they could grow in sufficient quantities on the small amount of land available to them for their own food because the British took the rest.

What's the lesson to be learned there?

why are you using the term "wittering on"? Why are you not just making your contribution in a friendly non confrontational way? This is an interesting topic, and I would have enjoyed an adult conversation, but it is pointless to try, when people are just trying to denigrate each other. What for? I really don't get it

noblegiraffe · 05/08/2025 08:59

Lemniscate8 · 05/08/2025 08:54

why are you using the term "wittering on"? Why are you not just making your contribution in a friendly non confrontational way? This is an interesting topic, and I would have enjoyed an adult conversation, but it is pointless to try, when people are just trying to denigrate each other. What for? I really don't get it

Because the original poster going on about how 'monocrops were a bad idea' was developing this from the idea that "It's not as simple as big bad English starving the Irish"

Implying that it was the bad idea of the ill-informed Irish to live off potatoes rather than something that they were also forced into doing by the (big bad) British.

LovingLimePeer · 05/08/2025 09:01

My Irish aunt often talks about the increased incidence of psychotic disorders since the famine. My own family is very affected.

It only slightly addresses epigenetics but there is a very good book about the intergenerational impact of trauma called 'it didn't start with you'. It's a very interesting read.

RedToothBrush · 05/08/2025 09:07

I am descended from Irish Catholics who survived the famine, Scottish Highlanders who were cleared off the land and persecuted for resisting English colonialism and fought at Culloden and from English peasants who left Gloucestershire in the 1830s due to industrialisation and globalisation meaning the bottom dropped out the weaving industry leaving them destitute like over 50% of the parish they lived in who were claiming relief.

From whom should I claim compensation and blame for my persecution in 2025?

Maybe I should claim it from DH. He's pretty much solidly English. Except he's descended from mariners who died young and their abandoned abused wives who turned to prostitution and alcohol to survive, poverty stricken miners who survived the fate of many of their colleagues who were killed or maimed training to maintain a subsistence existence and framework knitters who were acknowledged to be some of the most wretched and poverty stricken workers living and working in the most appalling conditions. Or perhaps the file cutters who went mad or passed on congenital defects to their children due to prolonged exposure to lead.

I always find these debates about what we should do now in 2025 about things that happened in the 1840s or earlier rather perverse and lacking in understanding and context about what was happening to others in the same period and how they were really not much better off and how many of us are now descended from 'both camps'.

The extent of poverty in the 1830s and 1840s really is incredible to think about. The number who got rich off the back of it, is remarkably small and even those descended four or five generations later generally didn't inherit the wealth due to large families and the estates not being split evenly.

I guess I'll put in my claim for my share of Scottish lands though. Along with the hundreds of other descendants of the same family... I might get 20p back from myself or DH.

GiantTeddyIsTired · 05/08/2025 09:08

noblegiraffe · 05/08/2025 08:59

Because the original poster going on about how 'monocrops were a bad idea' was developing this from the idea that "It's not as simple as big bad English starving the Irish"

Implying that it was the bad idea of the ill-informed Irish to live off potatoes rather than something that they were also forced into doing by the (big bad) British.

I was that poster and that's not the implication at all.

Saying that there wasn't a single thing at fault doesn't make the other things the fault of the people doing them FFS.

If the weather had even been not just right, the blight wouldn't have happened (although it was waiting to happen) - do you think I'm blaming people for the weather too?