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Politics

The Irish Potato Famine

402 replies

MsAmerica · 05/08/2025 03:23

This would have been better in a history forum, but failing that, I'll try Politics. Interesting article - a book review, really.

What Made the Irish Famine So Deadly
The Great Hunger was a modern event, shaped by the belief that the poor are the authors of their own misery and that the market must be obeyed at all costs.
By Fintan O’Toole

There have been, in absolute terms, many deadlier famines, but as Amartya Sen, the eminent Indian scholar of the subject, concluded, in “no other famine in the world [was] the proportion of people killed . . . as large as in the Irish famines in the 1840s.” The pathogen that caused it was a fungus-like water mold called Phytophthora infestans. Its effect on the potato gives “Rot,” a vigorous and engaging new study of the Irish famine by the historian Padraic X. Scanlan, its title. The blight began to infect the crop across much of western and northern Europe in the summer of 1845. In the Netherlands, about sixty thousand people died in the consequent famine—a terrible loss, but a fraction of the mortality rate in Ireland. It is, oddly, easier to form a mental picture of what it might have been like to witness the Dutch tragedy than to truly convey the magnitude of the suffering in Ireland...

Even before the potato blight, there was a degree of hunger among the Irish rural underclass that seemed like an ugly remnant of a receding past. In 1837, two years after Alexis de Tocqueville published the first volume of “Democracy in America,” his lifelong collaborator, Gustave de Beaumont, went to Ireland, a country the two men had previously visited together. The book de Beaumont produced in 1839, “L’Irlande: Sociale, Politique et Religieuse,” was a grim companion piece to his friend’s largely optimistic vision of the future that was taking shape on the far side of the Atlantic. De Beaumont, a grandson by marriage of the Marquis de Lafayette, understood that, while the United States his ancestor had helped to create was a vigorous outgrowth of the British political traditions he and de Tocqueville so admired, Ireland was their poisoned fruit. America, he wrote, was “the land where destitution is the exception,” Ireland “the country where misery is the common rule.”

The problem was not that the land was barren: Scanlan records that, “in 1846, 3.3 million acres were planted with grain, and Irish farms raised more than 2.5 million cattle, 2.2 million sheep and 600,000 pigs.” But almost none of this food was available for consumption by the people who produced it. It was intended primarily for export to the burgeoning industrial cities of England. Thus, even Irish farmers who held ten or more acres and who would therefore have been regarded as well off, ate meat only at Christmas. “If an Irish family slaughtered their own pig, they would sell even the intestines and other offal,” Scanlan writes. He quotes the testimony of a farmer to a parliamentary commission, in 1836, that “he knew other leaseholders who had not eaten even an egg in six months. ‘We sell them now,’ he explained.”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/03/17/rot-padraic-x-scanlan-book-review

OP posts:
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JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 10:41

noblegiraffe · 09/08/2025 10:37

The reaction to this thread has been bizarre, telling people they need to get over their victimhood, telling people off for blaming British peasants when no one had done that.

As for it being constantly discussed, I'm not sure I've ever seen a thread about this on MN.

A cursory search will show you 10 recent-ish threads on the matter

noblegiraffe · 09/08/2025 10:53

My search showed in the last 6 years one in the History Club about reparations, two about books people were reading about it, one about a Tory MP being offensive and this one.

SnipSnipMrBurgess · 09/08/2025 11:06

Some of the replies in this thread are unhinged.

Leave it to the brits to go and invade every country they could and then get defensive when those countries get pissed off.

The Irish Potato Famine
OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 11:10

SnipSnipMrBurgess · 09/08/2025 11:06

Some of the replies in this thread are unhinged.

Leave it to the brits to go and invade every country they could and then get defensive when those countries get pissed off.

“The Brits”
🙄

OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 11:12

A bit of an own goal to talk about current “Brits” as if they’re responsible..

Lurina · 09/08/2025 11:17

Agreed, @OpheliaWasntMad.

Treesnthings · 09/08/2025 11:25

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 09:01

Honestly, I’m a bit baffled as to how the starvation is still such a source of resentment and grudge for some people.

WW2 is discussed less among British people on a day to day basis, yet this was a 6 year war with aerial bombing campaigns, the complete destruction of numerous cities (I had to explain to a South African friend yesterday why only a small part of our local city is old - the rest of it was levelled), the deaths of nearly half a million people, and far more recent.

I honestly can’t remember the last time anyone wanted to discuss it on account of ‘generational trauma’, even my grandparents who lived through the whole thing discussed it less than the starvation is discussed on here.

I think people need to do a bit of soul searching as to why they really want to discuss it, and I don’t think the answer is historical interest.

This is simply not true, British people hold commemorative events, wear poppies on every tv station, your Royal family lay wreaths, your schools remember, you have minutes of silence. . Imagine if I said you have a massive chip on your collective shoulders,stop holding grudges. Stop making your German visitors uncomfortable How about if I said the Irish will stop teaching our kids about WW2 our schools ? Nothing to do with us, move on.

Treesnthings · 09/08/2025 11:28

Also to add it’s so good to read posts by those who have said they understand better and have taken something positive out of this discussion.

Slimtoddy · 09/08/2025 11:33

I also think our history impacts doesn't manifest in talking necessarily, it can manifest in how we behave. In the case of the Irish Great Hunger it could manifest in our relationship to food (not saying it does).

I was once told by someone that a psychologist they knew had travelled to Ireland from UK for some training and while they were there they came to understand that there was a culture of distant parenting in Ireland because people didn't want to get too close to their kids because they would likely emigrate. And in the psychologist's view this distant parenting contributed to addiction. Now, I don't know if that's true but it rang huge bells for me and my family/extended family. Our history shapes is in ways we might not fully understand.

OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 11:37

Slimtoddy · 09/08/2025 11:33

I also think our history impacts doesn't manifest in talking necessarily, it can manifest in how we behave. In the case of the Irish Great Hunger it could manifest in our relationship to food (not saying it does).

I was once told by someone that a psychologist they knew had travelled to Ireland from UK for some training and while they were there they came to understand that there was a culture of distant parenting in Ireland because people didn't want to get too close to their kids because they would likely emigrate. And in the psychologist's view this distant parenting contributed to addiction. Now, I don't know if that's true but it rang huge bells for me and my family/extended family. Our history shapes is in ways we might not fully understand.

I agree . That’s very interesting about the parenting . Emigration in those days was like a type of death. There was little chance of any reunion.

OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 11:41

I have also heard ( whether true or not I’m not sure) that the trauma of the famine led to increased religious fervour - increasing the power and influence of the church ( sowing the seeds for some further trauma down the road)

Slimtoddy · 09/08/2025 11:41

@OpheliaWasntMad it kinda blew my mind when he told me this. It made so much sense to me.

Shayisgreat · 09/08/2025 12:11

That is so interesting!

My DH is Indian and I've always found his family's relationships almost oppressive in how close children were expected to be to their parents. It never occurred to me that my distance from parents was unusual- I get on very well with them but I wouldn't even want to live in the same town. They didn't live in the same place as their parents and neither did their grandparents. Preparing for emigration - how interesting!

Then of course I continued that great Irish tradition of leaving in order to find work!

Lurina · 09/08/2025 12:25

Shayisgreat · 09/08/2025 12:11

That is so interesting!

My DH is Indian and I've always found his family's relationships almost oppressive in how close children were expected to be to their parents. It never occurred to me that my distance from parents was unusual- I get on very well with them but I wouldn't even want to live in the same town. They didn't live in the same place as their parents and neither did their grandparents. Preparing for emigration - how interesting!

Then of course I continued that great Irish tradition of leaving in order to find work!

Not my experience at all I have to say, most of my family live quite locally and are close. The people I know with kids in Australia etc were and are close to them too.

Perhaps it was different after the famine years, but now? I don’t know.
I think maybe it could be a subculture and affect some people, but I don’t see distant parenting as a widespread cultural phenomenon in Ireland personally. Quite the opposite really.

But I’m not a psychologist so who knows 😅

Shayisgreat · 09/08/2025 12:28

Lurina · 09/08/2025 12:25

Not my experience at all I have to say, most of my family live quite locally and are close. The people I know with kids in Australia etc were and are close to them too.

Perhaps it was different after the famine years, but now? I don’t know.
I think maybe it could be a subculture and affect some people, but I don’t see distant parenting as a widespread cultural phenomenon in Ireland personally. Quite the opposite really.

But I’m not a psychologist so who knows 😅

Yeah, in fairness when I look at my wider friendship group at home it's not like that there so probably particular to me and mine!

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 12:34

Treesnthings · 09/08/2025 11:25

This is simply not true, British people hold commemorative events, wear poppies on every tv station, your Royal family lay wreaths, your schools remember, you have minutes of silence. . Imagine if I said you have a massive chip on your collective shoulders,stop holding grudges. Stop making your German visitors uncomfortable How about if I said the Irish will stop teaching our kids about WW2 our schools ? Nothing to do with us, move on.

Edited

Yes but on an individual level, there is very very little talk of WW2 and as you can see from this forum, there isn’t really an appetite to discuss it in a ‘who is to blame’ way. And if there was I’m fairly certain most would post similarly to me - that no good can come of raking it over.

I don’t really care whether the Irish learn about WW2 or not, it isn’t their history so they can do as they please in deciding what goes on their own curriculum.

OchonAgusOchonOh · 09/08/2025 12:39

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 12:34

Yes but on an individual level, there is very very little talk of WW2 and as you can see from this forum, there isn’t really an appetite to discuss it in a ‘who is to blame’ way. And if there was I’m fairly certain most would post similarly to me - that no good can come of raking it over.

I don’t really care whether the Irish learn about WW2 or not, it isn’t their history so they can do as they please in deciding what goes on their own curriculum.

Seriously? Have I imagined all the posts every November about the "disrespectful" people not wearing poppies or carrying on with their business (but not speaking) during the moments of silence?

noblegiraffe · 09/08/2025 12:49

Yes but on an individual level, there is very very little talk of WW2

Batshit.

Even thinking about recent films - Oppenheimer was huge.

And no one ever mentions the Holocaust?

One could also argue that the self-image that Britain has as the plucky country that stood alone against the Nazis (think of the start of Dad's Army) contributed to Brexit.

Lurina · 09/08/2025 12:52

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 12:34

Yes but on an individual level, there is very very little talk of WW2 and as you can see from this forum, there isn’t really an appetite to discuss it in a ‘who is to blame’ way. And if there was I’m fairly certain most would post similarly to me - that no good can come of raking it over.

I don’t really care whether the Irish learn about WW2 or not, it isn’t their history so they can do as they please in deciding what goes on their own curriculum.

Irish people don’t go around talking about the famine day to day. It’s rarely mentioned.

If we happen to see a specific thread and comment that doesn’t mean we’re constantly raking things over and ruminating and festering as you seem to think.

BIossomtoes · 09/08/2025 12:53

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 12:34

Yes but on an individual level, there is very very little talk of WW2 and as you can see from this forum, there isn’t really an appetite to discuss it in a ‘who is to blame’ way. And if there was I’m fairly certain most would post similarly to me - that no good can come of raking it over.

I don’t really care whether the Irish learn about WW2 or not, it isn’t their history so they can do as they please in deciding what goes on their own curriculum.

The existence of Godwin’s Law contradicts this.

Treesnthings · 09/08/2025 12:57

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 12:34

Yes but on an individual level, there is very very little talk of WW2 and as you can see from this forum, there isn’t really an appetite to discuss it in a ‘who is to blame’ way. And if there was I’m fairly certain most would post similarly to me - that no good can come of raking it over.

I don’t really care whether the Irish learn about WW2 or not, it isn’t their history so they can do as they please in deciding what goes on their own curriculum.

This is a discussion forum, it’s not a replica of everyday chats.of course we learn about wW2 - I way making a comparison! Imagine if we didn’t bother and got irritated by people in UK remembering it and comnemersting it.

PandoraSocks · 09/08/2025 13:09

It is bizarre to say WW2 is never mentioned. Films relating to it are still being made.

The Rupert Lowe bigots fans were referencing Dad's Army only the other day.

Slimtoddy · 09/08/2025 13:33

@Lurina On one side of my family about 60% emigrated. On other side more like 20%. In my own family 40% emigrated. The distant parenting I think I experienced but that doesn't mean it was widespread or that was connected to emigration but it kinda makes sense to me.

I also think the current generation of parents are very very different to my parents generation. Also, none of my nieces and nephews in Ireland have emigrated although some of their friends have. Anyway it's just something to ponder.

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 13:38

PandoraSocks · 09/08/2025 13:09

It is bizarre to say WW2 is never mentioned. Films relating to it are still being made.

The Rupert Lowe bigots fans were referencing Dad's Army only the other day.

I didn’t say it’s never mentioned. It’s mentioned far more in the public arena here (England) than the starvation. But people don’t seem to have the same personal feelings of outrage and trauma that they do over the starvation. It’s more of a historical event of interest rather than something people get personally worked up about.

Slimtoddy · 09/08/2025 13:40

@JamesMacGill my uncle (Irish) was in the RAF during world war 2. I think quite a lot of young Irish men fought in the war. Perhaps they were seeking adventure. He didn't speak much about it but I think that was his trauma response. I think he saw a lot.

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