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Politics

The Irish Potato Famine

402 replies

MsAmerica · 05/08/2025 03:23

This would have been better in a history forum, but failing that, I'll try Politics. Interesting article - a book review, really.

What Made the Irish Famine So Deadly
The Great Hunger was a modern event, shaped by the belief that the poor are the authors of their own misery and that the market must be obeyed at all costs.
By Fintan O’Toole

There have been, in absolute terms, many deadlier famines, but as Amartya Sen, the eminent Indian scholar of the subject, concluded, in “no other famine in the world [was] the proportion of people killed . . . as large as in the Irish famines in the 1840s.” The pathogen that caused it was a fungus-like water mold called Phytophthora infestans. Its effect on the potato gives “Rot,” a vigorous and engaging new study of the Irish famine by the historian Padraic X. Scanlan, its title. The blight began to infect the crop across much of western and northern Europe in the summer of 1845. In the Netherlands, about sixty thousand people died in the consequent famine—a terrible loss, but a fraction of the mortality rate in Ireland. It is, oddly, easier to form a mental picture of what it might have been like to witness the Dutch tragedy than to truly convey the magnitude of the suffering in Ireland...

Even before the potato blight, there was a degree of hunger among the Irish rural underclass that seemed like an ugly remnant of a receding past. In 1837, two years after Alexis de Tocqueville published the first volume of “Democracy in America,” his lifelong collaborator, Gustave de Beaumont, went to Ireland, a country the two men had previously visited together. The book de Beaumont produced in 1839, “L’Irlande: Sociale, Politique et Religieuse,” was a grim companion piece to his friend’s largely optimistic vision of the future that was taking shape on the far side of the Atlantic. De Beaumont, a grandson by marriage of the Marquis de Lafayette, understood that, while the United States his ancestor had helped to create was a vigorous outgrowth of the British political traditions he and de Tocqueville so admired, Ireland was their poisoned fruit. America, he wrote, was “the land where destitution is the exception,” Ireland “the country where misery is the common rule.”

The problem was not that the land was barren: Scanlan records that, “in 1846, 3.3 million acres were planted with grain, and Irish farms raised more than 2.5 million cattle, 2.2 million sheep and 600,000 pigs.” But almost none of this food was available for consumption by the people who produced it. It was intended primarily for export to the burgeoning industrial cities of England. Thus, even Irish farmers who held ten or more acres and who would therefore have been regarded as well off, ate meat only at Christmas. “If an Irish family slaughtered their own pig, they would sell even the intestines and other offal,” Scanlan writes. He quotes the testimony of a farmer to a parliamentary commission, in 1836, that “he knew other leaseholders who had not eaten even an egg in six months. ‘We sell them now,’ he explained.”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/03/17/rot-padraic-x-scanlan-book-review

OP posts:
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5
DeafLeppard · 09/08/2025 08:25

Lurina · 08/08/2025 18:49

I hate the way you can’t talk about the past without being accused of victimhood though. I know I’m not a victim but it’s okay to remember what happened in the past.

Edited

It’s also okay to feel that what happened centuries or decades ago has no bearing whatsoever on your life.

Lurina · 09/08/2025 08:54

DeafLeppard · 09/08/2025 08:25

It’s also okay to feel that what happened centuries or decades ago has no bearing whatsoever on your life.

Oh I absolutely agree, just saying that it’s not okay for someone else (particularly someone from outside the country) to decide it must have no bearing now.
That it was too long ago, that you’re pretending to be a victim if it’s brought up, that it needs to be forgotten now.

That your ‘whole identity is tied up with anti-British propaganda’ if you do speak about your country’s history. What on earth is that about?

I don’t think it okay that you daren’t use the word ‘British’ when speaking about history without clarifying in triplicate that you know it was only the small minority in power then that had responsibility for The Famine, and that it wasn’t the fault of anyone alive today.

All that and you’re still the one accused of being too touchy about your past…🤔😅

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 09:01

Honestly, I’m a bit baffled as to how the starvation is still such a source of resentment and grudge for some people.

WW2 is discussed less among British people on a day to day basis, yet this was a 6 year war with aerial bombing campaigns, the complete destruction of numerous cities (I had to explain to a South African friend yesterday why only a small part of our local city is old - the rest of it was levelled), the deaths of nearly half a million people, and far more recent.

I honestly can’t remember the last time anyone wanted to discuss it on account of ‘generational trauma’, even my grandparents who lived through the whole thing discussed it less than the starvation is discussed on here.

I think people need to do a bit of soul searching as to why they really want to discuss it, and I don’t think the answer is historical interest.

OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 09:04

Lurina · 09/08/2025 08:54

Oh I absolutely agree, just saying that it’s not okay for someone else (particularly someone from outside the country) to decide it must have no bearing now.
That it was too long ago, that you’re pretending to be a victim if it’s brought up, that it needs to be forgotten now.

That your ‘whole identity is tied up with anti-British propaganda’ if you do speak about your country’s history. What on earth is that about?

I don’t think it okay that you daren’t use the word ‘British’ when speaking about history without clarifying in triplicate that you know it was only the small minority in power then that had responsibility for The Famine, and that it wasn’t the fault of anyone alive today.

All that and you’re still the one accused of being too touchy about your past…🤔😅

That is all absolutely fair . The past is important and it explains so much .
I think I was coming from a position that Ireland has much to be proud of in how it’s largely overcome the traumatic legacy of its colonial past .
I also think the GFA allowed Catholics and Protestants to start looking forward rather than backwards. And that’s a good thing.

OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 09:09

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 09:01

Honestly, I’m a bit baffled as to how the starvation is still such a source of resentment and grudge for some people.

WW2 is discussed less among British people on a day to day basis, yet this was a 6 year war with aerial bombing campaigns, the complete destruction of numerous cities (I had to explain to a South African friend yesterday why only a small part of our local city is old - the rest of it was levelled), the deaths of nearly half a million people, and far more recent.

I honestly can’t remember the last time anyone wanted to discuss it on account of ‘generational trauma’, even my grandparents who lived through the whole thing discussed it less than the starvation is discussed on here.

I think people need to do a bit of soul searching as to why they really want to discuss it, and I don’t think the answer is historical interest.

I think you’re misunderstanding the point of this thread.
Irish people don’t talk about the famine all the time …. But it IS the topic of this thread so its weird to object to people coming in here to
discuss it.
Regarding WW2 - there are countless books, documentaries, films about the British experience . It’s been much more widely covered than the Irish famine .

Lurina · 09/08/2025 09:09

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 09:01

Honestly, I’m a bit baffled as to how the starvation is still such a source of resentment and grudge for some people.

WW2 is discussed less among British people on a day to day basis, yet this was a 6 year war with aerial bombing campaigns, the complete destruction of numerous cities (I had to explain to a South African friend yesterday why only a small part of our local city is old - the rest of it was levelled), the deaths of nearly half a million people, and far more recent.

I honestly can’t remember the last time anyone wanted to discuss it on account of ‘generational trauma’, even my grandparents who lived through the whole thing discussed it less than the starvation is discussed on here.

I think people need to do a bit of soul searching as to why they really want to discuss it, and I don’t think the answer is historical interest.

Any resentment on these sort of threads is from attitudes like yours, don’t you see that?

Your accusations are horrible as well as being untrue.

I don’t think the answer is historical interest
What exactly do you think the answer is?

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 09:12

Lurina · 09/08/2025 09:09

Any resentment on these sort of threads is from attitudes like yours, don’t you see that?

Your accusations are horrible as well as being untrue.

I don’t think the answer is historical interest
What exactly do you think the answer is?

No, I really don’t. I think it’s time to move on now, living like this just isn’t healthy.

OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 09:19

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 09:12

No, I really don’t. I think it’s time to move on now, living like this just isn’t healthy.

“Living like this just isn’t healthy “..?
I’ve no idea why you’ve chosen to come on this thread and say this .
There is a genuinely interesting academic discussion to be had about the Irish famine. Many people on this thread have found it informative. Not sure why you’ve chosen to think it’s an unacceptable topic .

DeafLeppard · 09/08/2025 09:22

I think the point is that some horrific historical events are discussed in therms of significant inter generational trauma that is felt centuries later - such as the famine, and others -such as World War 2 and the levelling of many British cities, or the wiping out of entire villages of young men in WW1 - are not discussed in anywhere near the same emotional terms. It’s a valid question to ask why is that?

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 09:33

DeafLeppard · 09/08/2025 09:22

I think the point is that some horrific historical events are discussed in therms of significant inter generational trauma that is felt centuries later - such as the famine, and others -such as World War 2 and the levelling of many British cities, or the wiping out of entire villages of young men in WW1 - are not discussed in anywhere near the same emotional terms. It’s a valid question to ask why is that?

Absolutely. I genuinely feel zero bitterness toward German people, or need to ‘discuss’ the reasons why their forebearers did what they did. It’s over, they’ve shown contrition; what more can be done? What good would it do?

I think Ireland was unaffected by WW2 to the degree they don’t really understand what it was like in Britain, and therefore assume we have no idea about pain and suffering, and assume their historical injustices are the ultimate ones. I feel a bit 🙄 when some Irish people talk about ‘knowing how the Palestinians feel’. When they’ve never been subject to an aerial bombing campaign, but Britain has, and not that long ago either.

Lurina · 09/08/2025 09:39

DeafLeppard · 09/08/2025 09:22

I think the point is that some horrific historical events are discussed in therms of significant inter generational trauma that is felt centuries later - such as the famine, and others -such as World War 2 and the levelling of many British cities, or the wiping out of entire villages of young men in WW1 - are not discussed in anywhere near the same emotional terms. It’s a valid question to ask why is that?

I think people have been forced on this thread to give explanations as to why it’s okay to discuss the Famine. Inter-generational trauma has been mentioned as a reason.

I’ve haven’t seen people discussing WW2 being asked why on earth it’s still relevant, or being accused of seeking victimhood. Compare that to this thread where PPs have been making not so vague accusations re nationalism, terrorism, what? I don’t even know for sure.

People don’t have to defend themselves in the same way when WW2 is discussed. They’re generally not accused of hatred against Germans etc. Inter-generational trauma doesn’t need to be mentioned because the discussion is seen as valid from the start. Some posters clearly don’t see this one as valid.

OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 09:44

DeafLeppard · 09/08/2025 09:22

I think the point is that some horrific historical events are discussed in therms of significant inter generational trauma that is felt centuries later - such as the famine, and others -such as World War 2 and the levelling of many British cities, or the wiping out of entire villages of young men in WW1 - are not discussed in anywhere near the same emotional terms. It’s a valid question to ask why is that?

I don’t think the scale of the Irish famine is fully understood outside of Ireland.
Before the famine the population of Ireland was over 8 million. England was roughly about 11 million ( more with Wales )
In 2019 Ireland was roughly 5 million whereas the UK is 56 million.
The population of Ireland still hasn’t recovered its pre - famine numbers. That’s astonishing surely?
It does point to a catastrophic event.
I don’t think the current Irish people should ( or do ) view themselves as victims. Ireland is an affluent country and enjoys a better standard of living than the UK in many ways . However it was a terrible event and the resilience of the Irish, many of whom emigrated and made highly successful lives in US, is remarkable.

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 09:51

OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 09:44

I don’t think the scale of the Irish famine is fully understood outside of Ireland.
Before the famine the population of Ireland was over 8 million. England was roughly about 11 million ( more with Wales )
In 2019 Ireland was roughly 5 million whereas the UK is 56 million.
The population of Ireland still hasn’t recovered its pre - famine numbers. That’s astonishing surely?
It does point to a catastrophic event.
I don’t think the current Irish people should ( or do ) view themselves as victims. Ireland is an affluent country and enjoys a better standard of living than the UK in many ways . However it was a terrible event and the resilience of the Irish, many of whom emigrated and made highly successful lives in US, is remarkable.

Of course countries aren’t the same as before when a very significant historical event happens. Our towns and cities aren’t coming back, entire cities now look wildly different to how they did pre-Blitz (have a look at before/after in Liverpool - an absolute shocker). The half million people who died aren’t coming back. The British didn’t have the option to emigrate, although their children were sent to live with families they’d never met before (just imagine) so they could be saved from the Blitz and their parents could continue in the war effort. The draft meant the men weren’t allowed to leave the country.

My point is Ireland isn’t the only country who has suffered, and if I’m being honest I think it need to remember that sometimes.

DeafLeppard · 09/08/2025 09:56

Lurina · 09/08/2025 09:39

I think people have been forced on this thread to give explanations as to why it’s okay to discuss the Famine. Inter-generational trauma has been mentioned as a reason.

I’ve haven’t seen people discussing WW2 being asked why on earth it’s still relevant, or being accused of seeking victimhood. Compare that to this thread where PPs have been making not so vague accusations re nationalism, terrorism, what? I don’t even know for sure.

People don’t have to defend themselves in the same way when WW2 is discussed. They’re generally not accused of hatred against Germans etc. Inter-generational trauma doesn’t need to be mentioned because the discussion is seen as valid from the start. Some posters clearly don’t see this one as valid.

Edited

I don’t think anyone needs to justify why we are talking about it, do we? But I do think the language used around the Famine is different from that used in other historical contexts, and feels far more personal, if that makes sense?

DeafLeppard · 09/08/2025 09:59

OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 09:44

I don’t think the scale of the Irish famine is fully understood outside of Ireland.
Before the famine the population of Ireland was over 8 million. England was roughly about 11 million ( more with Wales )
In 2019 Ireland was roughly 5 million whereas the UK is 56 million.
The population of Ireland still hasn’t recovered its pre - famine numbers. That’s astonishing surely?
It does point to a catastrophic event.
I don’t think the current Irish people should ( or do ) view themselves as victims. Ireland is an affluent country and enjoys a better standard of living than the UK in many ways . However it was a terrible event and the resilience of the Irish, many of whom emigrated and made highly successful lives in US, is remarkable.

I think you’re right, most other countries don’t realise how big a deal it was, and I think that this includes England. If you look at the history of the Empire, the Famine is just one episode. It’s clearly of immense importance to the Irish, but it’s one of a number of events from an Empire perspective. Does that make sense?

OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 10:07

DeafLeppard · 09/08/2025 09:59

I think you’re right, most other countries don’t realise how big a deal it was, and I think that this includes England. If you look at the history of the Empire, the Famine is just one episode. It’s clearly of immense importance to the Irish, but it’s one of a number of events from an Empire perspective. Does that make sense?

Yes - it does make absolute sense.
We all look at historical events from our own perspective.
I think it is better to keep the emotion out of historical discussions but that can only happen if everyone is respectful in terms of language use etc .

Slimtoddy · 09/08/2025 10:12

To be honest @JamesMacGill I have no issues with people talking about WW2 and the events that happen every year in November. I have worked with people who do talk about it and what happened to their parents in London during the blitz. But then I am interested in history and love hearing personal stories from real people. And I think the experiences shaped their parents and no doubt them. I also enjoy a good documentary of which they are many.

I find history interesting and I find Irish history particularly interesting because it's my home. I love the ancient history that you can see on the land that hints at an ancient civilization. The Great Hunger is just another piece of history and I will engage with it and talk about it in the same way I talk to my British friends about their history. Perhaps this thread is full of people who are interested in history.

Thanks to a poster earlier I will listen to a podcast about the Choctaw people who sent money to Ireland to support the Irish people and no doubt I will learn a bit about their history.

Lurina · 09/08/2025 10:13

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 09:51

Of course countries aren’t the same as before when a very significant historical event happens. Our towns and cities aren’t coming back, entire cities now look wildly different to how they did pre-Blitz (have a look at before/after in Liverpool - an absolute shocker). The half million people who died aren’t coming back. The British didn’t have the option to emigrate, although their children were sent to live with families they’d never met before (just imagine) so they could be saved from the Blitz and their parents could continue in the war effort. The draft meant the men weren’t allowed to leave the country.

My point is Ireland isn’t the only country who has suffered, and if I’m being honest I think it need to remember that sometimes.

Our towns and cities aren’t coming back, entire cities now look wildly different to how they did pre-Blitz (have a look at before/after in Liverpool - an absolute shocker). The half million people who died aren’t coming back. The British didn’t have the option to emigrate, although their children were sent to live with families they’d never met before (just imagine) so they could be saved from the Blitz and their parents could continue in the war effort. The draft meant the men weren’t allowed to leave the country

I think you need to do a bit of soul searching as to why you really want to discuss this, and I don’t think the answer is historical interest.

(Maybe you can understand a bit better why your earlier remark isn’t at all fair now?)

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 10:16

Lurina · 09/08/2025 10:13

Our towns and cities aren’t coming back, entire cities now look wildly different to how they did pre-Blitz (have a look at before/after in Liverpool - an absolute shocker). The half million people who died aren’t coming back. The British didn’t have the option to emigrate, although their children were sent to live with families they’d never met before (just imagine) so they could be saved from the Blitz and their parents could continue in the war effort. The draft meant the men weren’t allowed to leave the country

I think you need to do a bit of soul searching as to why you really want to discuss this, and I don’t think the answer is historical interest.

(Maybe you can understand a bit better why your earlier remark isn’t at all fair now?)

I’m happy not to. It was used as a comparison, as you well know.

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 10:19

OpheliaWasntMad · 09/08/2025 10:07

Yes - it does make absolute sense.
We all look at historical events from our own perspective.
I think it is better to keep the emotion out of historical discussions but that can only happen if everyone is respectful in terms of language use etc .

But I feel like whatever people said, no matter how well intentioned, the offence angle would be found. The whole point of history is it is multifaceted and people have different opinions on the non established facts.

Chicaontour · 09/08/2025 10:24

PurpleChrayn · 05/08/2025 07:32

Israel has provided more than adequate aid. It’s the UN that has refused to work with Israeli organisations to distribute it.

Yep and then murdering Palestinians while queueing up for food. Spoiler aler that's not aid its genocide

MrsSkylerWhite · 09/08/2025 10:25

Why are people discussing the Middle East situation? This Thread is about the famine.

Lurina · 09/08/2025 10:27

JamesMacGill · 09/08/2025 10:16

I’m happy not to. It was used as a comparison, as you well know.

Should nobody else discuss WW2 either, even if you choose not to? Is that what what you mean? Because lots of people do write about terrible times in their country’s history for non-comparative reasons. I must assume you believe them all to be wallowing.

Lurina · 09/08/2025 10:33

DeafLeppard · 09/08/2025 09:56

I don’t think anyone needs to justify why we are talking about it, do we? But I do think the language used around the Famine is different from that used in other historical contexts, and feels far more personal, if that makes sense?

Yes, and I was trying to explain why that is. People on this thread have been forced to defend why they are even talking about the subject. They have felt obliged to recount how it wasn’t that long ago in generational terms, how they heard about it from their grandparents and so on, in response to pps telling them they should be over it by now, they’re claiming victimhood etc.

The way the thread has gone has made it personal and that’s not unusual unfortunately.

noblegiraffe · 09/08/2025 10:37

The reaction to this thread has been bizarre, telling people they need to get over their victimhood, telling people off for blaming British peasants when no one had done that.

As for it being constantly discussed, I'm not sure I've ever seen a thread about this on MN.

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