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Politics

The Irish Potato Famine

402 replies

MsAmerica · 05/08/2025 03:23

This would have been better in a history forum, but failing that, I'll try Politics. Interesting article - a book review, really.

What Made the Irish Famine So Deadly
The Great Hunger was a modern event, shaped by the belief that the poor are the authors of their own misery and that the market must be obeyed at all costs.
By Fintan O’Toole

There have been, in absolute terms, many deadlier famines, but as Amartya Sen, the eminent Indian scholar of the subject, concluded, in “no other famine in the world [was] the proportion of people killed . . . as large as in the Irish famines in the 1840s.” The pathogen that caused it was a fungus-like water mold called Phytophthora infestans. Its effect on the potato gives “Rot,” a vigorous and engaging new study of the Irish famine by the historian Padraic X. Scanlan, its title. The blight began to infect the crop across much of western and northern Europe in the summer of 1845. In the Netherlands, about sixty thousand people died in the consequent famine—a terrible loss, but a fraction of the mortality rate in Ireland. It is, oddly, easier to form a mental picture of what it might have been like to witness the Dutch tragedy than to truly convey the magnitude of the suffering in Ireland...

Even before the potato blight, there was a degree of hunger among the Irish rural underclass that seemed like an ugly remnant of a receding past. In 1837, two years after Alexis de Tocqueville published the first volume of “Democracy in America,” his lifelong collaborator, Gustave de Beaumont, went to Ireland, a country the two men had previously visited together. The book de Beaumont produced in 1839, “L’Irlande: Sociale, Politique et Religieuse,” was a grim companion piece to his friend’s largely optimistic vision of the future that was taking shape on the far side of the Atlantic. De Beaumont, a grandson by marriage of the Marquis de Lafayette, understood that, while the United States his ancestor had helped to create was a vigorous outgrowth of the British political traditions he and de Tocqueville so admired, Ireland was their poisoned fruit. America, he wrote, was “the land where destitution is the exception,” Ireland “the country where misery is the common rule.”

The problem was not that the land was barren: Scanlan records that, “in 1846, 3.3 million acres were planted with grain, and Irish farms raised more than 2.5 million cattle, 2.2 million sheep and 600,000 pigs.” But almost none of this food was available for consumption by the people who produced it. It was intended primarily for export to the burgeoning industrial cities of England. Thus, even Irish farmers who held ten or more acres and who would therefore have been regarded as well off, ate meat only at Christmas. “If an Irish family slaughtered their own pig, they would sell even the intestines and other offal,” Scanlan writes. He quotes the testimony of a farmer to a parliamentary commission, in 1836, that “he knew other leaseholders who had not eaten even an egg in six months. ‘We sell them now,’ he explained.”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/03/17/rot-padraic-x-scanlan-book-review

OP posts:
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Lemniscate8 · 07/08/2025 09:47

Shayisgreat · 07/08/2025 09:40

@Lemniscate8It just occurred to me to ask this- do you actually think that the Great Hunger happened in Ireland because the Irish were too stupid to grow anything else?

Do you actually believe that the British ruling classes didn't implement policies that made it impossible for Irish people to subsist on anything else?

Are you aware the more food was exported from Ireland by British landlords during the Great Famine years than the previous or subsequent years?

Do you really think that it was solely a "potato famine"?

The British call it a potato famine because in their arrogance they can't accept culpability in creating the Great Hunger. Are you one of their number? Or are you just unable to learn new concepts?

I teach it, I mark hundreds of essays on it, I am well aware of the britsh complicity. I think it has hugely important lessons for today. The lessons for today are more around consequences of monoculture, and how aid sent into a disaster can be as ineffective as possible. That does not mean I think these are the main causes. Just the lessons most relevant for the world we are in today. There are many oppressed people today, and I fight hard for justice for syrians, sudanese, burmese, etc, I think we understand oppression is evil. What is less understood and is still important, is how dangerous monocultures are, and how badly wrong aid distribution can go.

Those poor people are gone, but we can learn from what happened to them to protect others - isn't that what you would want if you died in a disaster, manmade or otherwise?

grimupnorthnot · 07/08/2025 09:52

upandleftthenright · 05/08/2025 07:20

Why are the Irish so obsessed with linking themselves to what is going on in Gaza? It’s like an obsession to claim current victimhood. Ireland is a thriving and prosperous country. Understand and acknowledge your history but don’t go down the path of being victims and aligning with horrors elsewhere. I see this mentality creeping into Scotland and it’s so destructive. Trying to make highland clearances a thing and that Scotland is owed something as victims. It’s a self defeating mindset. It’s not of the same equivalence to war elsewhere.

funny how Britain and the British are the world record holders in causing genocide and death in recent history, yet they always seem to deny they were the evil in the world for nearly 800 years.

grimupnorthnot · 07/08/2025 09:53

Lemniscate8 · 07/08/2025 09:47

I teach it, I mark hundreds of essays on it, I am well aware of the britsh complicity. I think it has hugely important lessons for today. The lessons for today are more around consequences of monoculture, and how aid sent into a disaster can be as ineffective as possible. That does not mean I think these are the main causes. Just the lessons most relevant for the world we are in today. There are many oppressed people today, and I fight hard for justice for syrians, sudanese, burmese, etc, I think we understand oppression is evil. What is less understood and is still important, is how dangerous monocultures are, and how badly wrong aid distribution can go.

Those poor people are gone, but we can learn from what happened to them to protect others - isn't that what you would want if you died in a disaster, manmade or otherwise?

considering you teach it you have a poor understanding of history

grimupnorthnot · 07/08/2025 09:55

MsAmerica · 06/08/2025 01:03

You're kidding. I thought it was the word "famine." It may not be used in Ireland, but I'm pretty sure the phrase is pretty widely used elsewhere. In any case, I could see someone disapproving because it was vague, but not because it was "offensive." The article is pretty clear about the responsibilities of people and policies, though.
Thanks for the information. Since the complainant didn't bother to be clear about her objection, there's no way I could have guessed. Next time, I'll try "tuber famine."

if you're reading history from a British point of view, its always going to try and not make them look as evil as they've always been, doesn't mean its the correct term to use.

Elatha · 07/08/2025 09:56

God help your students so.

Shayisgreat · 07/08/2025 09:57

Lemniscate8 · 07/08/2025 09:47

I teach it, I mark hundreds of essays on it, I am well aware of the britsh complicity. I think it has hugely important lessons for today. The lessons for today are more around consequences of monoculture, and how aid sent into a disaster can be as ineffective as possible. That does not mean I think these are the main causes. Just the lessons most relevant for the world we are in today. There are many oppressed people today, and I fight hard for justice for syrians, sudanese, burmese, etc, I think we understand oppression is evil. What is less understood and is still important, is how dangerous monocultures are, and how badly wrong aid distribution can go.

Those poor people are gone, but we can learn from what happened to them to protect others - isn't that what you would want if you died in a disaster, manmade or otherwise?

But can't accept that it is called The Great Famine or The Great Hunger rather than the potato famine?

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2025 10:01

The lessons for today are more around consequences of monoculture, and how aid sent into a disaster can be as ineffective as possible.

That's it?

Not even anything about how the population were so devastated and desperate for a better life that they got on coffin ships to seek that better life even though they knew there was a good chance that they would die on the way?

Can't think of any relevance there.

DeafLeppard · 07/08/2025 10:11

Shayisgreat · 07/08/2025 09:40

@Lemniscate8It just occurred to me to ask this- do you actually think that the Great Hunger happened in Ireland because the Irish were too stupid to grow anything else?

Do you actually believe that the British ruling classes didn't implement policies that made it impossible for Irish people to subsist on anything else?

Are you aware the more food was exported from Ireland by British landlords during the Great Famine years than the previous or subsequent years?

Do you really think that it was solely a "potato famine"?

The British call it a potato famine because in their arrogance they can't accept culpability in creating the Great Hunger. Are you one of their number? Or are you just unable to learn new concepts?

I think this is a massive overreach. People aren't going about calling it the potato famine because they don't want to make the Brits look bad. They call it the potato famine because it was failure of the potato crop that kicked the whole thing off!

inigomontoyahwillcox · 07/08/2025 10:11

grimupnorthnot · 07/08/2025 09:52

funny how Britain and the British are the world record holders in causing genocide and death in recent history, yet they always seem to deny they were the evil in the world for nearly 800 years.

Oh we know - we are the international "poster child" (for want of a better expression) for colonialism.

Although I am conscious of Britain's very chequered past, I know I should know more about it (but there are so many issues I need to educate myself further on and realistically there are only so many hours in the day). I do understand that the potato famine was not the beginning of Britain's atrocities in Ireland (Oliver Cromwell, for example).

What does irk me though, particularly about our reputation of historically being colonial scum, is that these were decisions made by a wealthy male government voted in by wealthy men (to qualify for voting rights in the 19th century you had to be a man who owned land above a certain value); the lower classes, and women - although may have indeed benefitted from the import of Irish food - had absolutely no say in policy/politics, and probably no understanding of where the food originated from. So when people say "the British", certainly in the context of pre 20th century history, what they are really referring to is the wealthy men of Britain.

DeafLeppard · 07/08/2025 10:16

grimupnorthnot · 07/08/2025 09:52

funny how Britain and the British are the world record holders in causing genocide and death in recent history, yet they always seem to deny they were the evil in the world for nearly 800 years.

Oh FGS this makes you look stupid and with a massive axe to grind to go with the chip on your shoulder. Go and educate yourself about recent history in Russia and China - let alone the Holocaust if you think that the Brits are the "world record holders in causing genocide and death".

Shayisgreat · 07/08/2025 10:23

DeafLeppard · 07/08/2025 10:11

I think this is a massive overreach. People aren't going about calling it the potato famine because they don't want to make the Brits look bad. They call it the potato famine because it was failure of the potato crop that kicked the whole thing off!

No, British people call it the potato famine and refuse to listen to Irish people when they say that this is inappropriate.

Is that arrogance (that the know better than the Irish) or something else?

Lemniscate8 · 07/08/2025 10:27

grimupnorthnot · 07/08/2025 09:53

considering you teach it you have a poor understanding of history

what exactly are you saying I dont understand?

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2025 10:28

Worth remembering that the deliberate starvation of the Irish wasn't an isolated accident, it was part of a general attitude towards the Irish as lesser.

People suggesting that impact of the famine was only felt by people long dead need to remember that the attitudes persisted long beyond the 1850s. Think of London in the 1960s with 'No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs'.

Lurina · 07/08/2025 10:36

inigomontoyahwillcox · 07/08/2025 10:11

Oh we know - we are the international "poster child" (for want of a better expression) for colonialism.

Although I am conscious of Britain's very chequered past, I know I should know more about it (but there are so many issues I need to educate myself further on and realistically there are only so many hours in the day). I do understand that the potato famine was not the beginning of Britain's atrocities in Ireland (Oliver Cromwell, for example).

What does irk me though, particularly about our reputation of historically being colonial scum, is that these were decisions made by a wealthy male government voted in by wealthy men (to qualify for voting rights in the 19th century you had to be a man who owned land above a certain value); the lower classes, and women - although may have indeed benefitted from the import of Irish food - had absolutely no say in policy/politics, and probably no understanding of where the food originated from. So when people say "the British", certainly in the context of pre 20th century history, what they are really referring to is the wealthy men of Britain.

Yes, it is people in power that posters are talking about regarding responsibility.

Everyone knows that I think.

I don’t think posters should necessarily have to point that out every time they make a comment though, or risk being jumped on.

DeafLeppard · 07/08/2025 10:46

Shayisgreat · 07/08/2025 10:23

No, British people call it the potato famine and refuse to listen to Irish people when they say that this is inappropriate.

Is that arrogance (that the know better than the Irish) or something else?

No -they call it that because most of them barely give it a second thought. It will literally not feature on their radar, and if someone says “actually, it’s the Great Hunger”, they’ll go “oh right” and move right on with their lives.

As I said I grew up in Ireland and it’s only recently that I’ve seen outrage against calling it the potato famine. Times move on and it’s entirely appropriate to change how we refer to things but it’s not on most people’s radar.

You haven’t responded to my comments about the Brits being the most murderous people over the past 800 years; don’t you think that might upset a few Brits in the way using the phrase “potato famine” gets Irish people so upset?

Or is it just the Brits you hate?

DeafLeppard · 07/08/2025 10:47

Apologies @Shayisgreat - it wasn’t you who made the comment re: 800 years of murder.

Shayisgreat · 07/08/2025 10:56

DeafLeppard · 07/08/2025 10:47

Apologies @Shayisgreat - it wasn’t you who made the comment re: 800 years of murder.

No worries, I don't hate the British. As in Ireland, there are wonderful, awful, and every other type of person in between here.

I hear your point re: people not giving it a second thought when corrected and moving on with their lives but then....People are on this thread not accepting it and continuing to use the phrase and insisting that they are right. What's that about?

Lurina · 07/08/2025 11:00

I don’t understand that either @Shayisgreat.

I hope @Lemniscate8 reconsiders when she has a chance to think a bit more about it, especially as she teaches the subject.
OP also.

Lemniscate8 · 07/08/2025 11:12

Lurina · 07/08/2025 11:00

I don’t understand that either @Shayisgreat.

I hope @Lemniscate8 reconsiders when she has a chance to think a bit more about it, especially as she teaches the subject.
OP also.

I am perfectly willing to reconsider, if anyone explains why I should, but noone has - it is just a sort of we want you to jump, so jump, sort of explanation.

but either way, you definitely cant call it the great famine, as that name belongs to a totally different famine of a far greater magnitude (chinese - I think 30-40 million dead?)

Insanityisnotastrategy · 07/08/2025 11:20

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2025 10:28

Worth remembering that the deliberate starvation of the Irish wasn't an isolated accident, it was part of a general attitude towards the Irish as lesser.

People suggesting that impact of the famine was only felt by people long dead need to remember that the attitudes persisted long beyond the 1850s. Think of London in the 1960s with 'No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs'.

I remembered reading somewhere that this is apparently a bit of a myth. Just googled and this is one of the first results:

https://www.irishpost.com/life-style/infamous-no-irish-no-blacks-no-dogs-signs-may-never-have-existed-racist-xenophobic-148416

Not to say that racism and xenophobia weren't an issue, obviously.

Edited with apologies - the article appears to debunk that, I was mythtaken.

No proof? How the infamous 'No Irish, no blacks, no dogs' signs may never have existed | The Irish Post

NO Irish, no blacks, no dogs. Those menacing six words are a stark, unapologetically racist expr...

https://www.irishpost.com/life-style/infamous-no-irish-no-blacks-no-dogs-signs-may-never-have-existed-racist-xenophobic-148416

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2025 11:22

Insanityisnotastrategy · 07/08/2025 11:20

I remembered reading somewhere that this is apparently a bit of a myth. Just googled and this is one of the first results:

https://www.irishpost.com/life-style/infamous-no-irish-no-blacks-no-dogs-signs-may-never-have-existed-racist-xenophobic-148416

Not to say that racism and xenophobia weren't an issue, obviously.

Edited with apologies - the article appears to debunk that, I was mythtaken.

Edited

Perhaps you should read the article.

"He added: “I’m puzzled by what exactly Mr Draper is trying to prove. Ample evidence exists in numerous oral history interviews with both Caribbean and Irish migrants that such signs existed well into the 60s.
“Further proof can be found in the report Discrimination and the Irish Community in Britain published by the Commission for Racial Equality in 1997.
“It seems mischievous at best and malicious at worst on John Draper’s part to suggest that this photograph is a fraud and by implication that Irish people in Britain were not discriminated against in the post-war era.”
And discriminated against, they certainly were. That is not up for debate – especially not for the many thousands of Irish men and women who crossed the sea to Britain in the aftermath of the Second World War.
So there you have it – the infamous ‘No Irish, no blacks, no dogs’ signs almost certainly existed."

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2025 11:23

Lemniscate8 · 07/08/2025 11:12

I am perfectly willing to reconsider, if anyone explains why I should, but noone has - it is just a sort of we want you to jump, so jump, sort of explanation.

but either way, you definitely cant call it the great famine, as that name belongs to a totally different famine of a far greater magnitude (chinese - I think 30-40 million dead?)

Edited

Oh I'm sure people are going to get really confused as to why you are suddenly talking about China if you refer to a Great Famine on this thread Hmm

PhilippaGeorgiou · 07/08/2025 11:25

Lemniscate8 · 07/08/2025 11:12

I am perfectly willing to reconsider, if anyone explains why I should, but noone has - it is just a sort of we want you to jump, so jump, sort of explanation.

but either way, you definitely cant call it the great famine, as that name belongs to a totally different famine of a far greater magnitude (chinese - I think 30-40 million dead?)

Edited

You are being deliberately obstructive - you have had a number of reasonable requests and explanations and have point blank refused to change because you, apparently, won't be able to "communicate". It's deeply disturbing that an educator finds it hard to avoid using offensive language because it prevents them communicating. Or is unable to distinguish between Ireland and China it would appear. There are at least 30 towns and cities called Manchester around the world, and at least 24 Dublins. Presumably most people can tell the difference between, say Bolivia and Canada, or Sierra Leone and Belarus?

Lemniscate8 · 07/08/2025 11:26

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2025 11:23

Oh I'm sure people are going to get really confused as to why you are suddenly talking about China if you refer to a Great Famine on this thread Hmm

Why not? people might be? We are talking about famines in general? And people seem to want me to call the potato famine "the great famine" off this thread too, which I obviously am not going to do, because nobody would have any idea what I meant and communication would totally break down

Why would you deliberately give one event a name already given to another event? It makes no sense at all

noblegiraffe · 07/08/2025 11:27

Lemniscate8 · 07/08/2025 11:26

Why not? people might be? We are talking about famines in general? And people seem to want me to call the potato famine "the great famine" off this thread too, which I obviously am not going to do, because nobody would have any idea what I meant and communication would totally break down

Why would you deliberately give one event a name already given to another event? It makes no sense at all

Edited

I think people are clever enough to know if you are talking about Ireland then you are not suddenly talking about China if there is nothing in your post to suggest this makes sense.

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