Starmer Must Go

[BisiBodi]

I made a lengthy post yesterday (on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/politics/5333405-changes-to-immigration-rules-announced-by-starmer?page=2 @ 17:43 if you want to read it) regarding the horrendous "island of strangers" speech by Starmer
Today, Kier Starmer has decided to say that immigration has done "incalculable damage" to the country. My despair and fury over this, and the general direction of labour, warrants its own thread.

Starmer claimed in writing that immigrants have put too much pressure on housing and public services (they don't, and he previously said they don't). He added that the immigration system is “almost designed to permit abuse” and that it risks “pulling the country apart”. He said that he wanted to close a “squalid chapter” in our country’s history (of too much immigration in the last few years), and then he seemed to quote the Rivers of Blood speech and said that without significantly reducing immigration the UK risks becoming “an island of strangers".

He's doing this because he's proposing new laws to make immigration harder and bring net migration down (except they definitely won't). Stuff like increasing it to 10 years before you can apply for indefinite leave to remain (10 years!!), introducing English language tests (in a post that suggests Welsh doesn't exist), reducing social care visas (the system would collapse in a day), being tougher on overseas students and reducing the time they can stay after graduation (if you reduce their numbers at all then Universities will be bankrupt immediately), new ID cards, reduce (oh sorry, "clarify") the amount ECHR article 8 can be used to justify people staying on human rights grounds, etc.

When someone pointed out that high migration helps economies and low hurts them, and that this is true in the EU right now and all over the world, Starmer didn't think so. He said that immigration has been high in the UK but the economy has been stagnant, so there can't be any link. Yes Keir, but the economy was stagnant during A PANDEMIC AND ENERGY CRISIS AND COST OF LIVING CRISIS AND EXPENSIVE NEW WARS AND GLOBAL MARKET TRUMP TURMOIL. If the immigrants hadn't kept us level, your "stagnant" economy would have plummeted like a rock. You cannot possibly be presenting that as X=Y in a total vacuum.

This kind of xenophobia doesn't need explaining, but it's worth saying why it won't work and will lose Labour a lot of votes:

• Conservative and Reform voters do NOT change their vote to Labour ever, so this pandering is worthless. But Labour can lose votes to the Greens and LDs at a high rate. Nearly ALL the Reform votes come from former Conservatives.
• Public concern about immigration is low and goes up and down exactly with how much the press is currently going on about it (see the graph) so is not worth alienating your voter base about
• And it is alienating voters, because you've heard this kind of rhetoric before but it was from the actual NF and BNP
• The Mail's headline today was still attacking Labour because it is impossible to ever go far enough for them, or for Reform voters. Nothing is ever enough.

So, Labour saying "Reform are right actually" won't bring a single voter over to Labour, but it sure will lose you a few. Or, er, a lot. People are resigning their Labour membership and sounding furious. I haven't seen a single event trigger this much outrage from the public (and Labour MPs) in quite a while. Starmer has hugely damaged himself. Germany's far-right AfD are praising him, that's the level it's at.

I already left for the Greens, but today has me going even further. I think it's now worth the potential chaos to get rid of Starmer's version of Labour. In a timely article today, Nesrine Malik called our current elections "hostage politics". You MUST vote Labour or the Tories will get in. Now you MUST vote Labour or Reform will get in.

I don't respond well to threats. Never have. I tend to escalate. And I'm bored of their crap: more cuts, keeping first-past-the-post even though Labour members want PR, refusing to talk about rejoining the EU even though Labour members (and the majority of the country) want full rejoin, this xenophobic shit which goes against everything Starmer said about immigration when he was running for leader (but then he's broken every pledge from that time), the anti-trans bollocks, coming for the disabled PIP and saying all benefits are too high and that people are taking advantage of handouts and all the rest.

Fuck these guys. There's pragmatic politics where you compromise, and then there's this literal far-right shit that means you personally HAVE to be comfortable with saying it in public. It's about the soul of the PM and the party. Today is way over the line of sensible cross-party anything.

And I'm done with hostage politics. What, so we keep Labour in for 8 more years of... this? Of the same or more cuts? I'm rapidly approaching the point where smashing this Labour party so that they never try to be centre- / far-right again would do more good than the short-term harm.

Voters didn't show unwavering support for Labour at the last election, they showed that they will be extremely flexible and vote for whoever can win in their area. If Labour become unpopular in the polls, that will be someone else and not them. Labour's lead is incredibly fragile and changeable and today's performance is EXACTLY how they lose it and deserve to lose it. Yes, some young men went to Reform before the election... and twice as many young women went to the Greens. Labour's share fell 21% in 18-24 year olds. You cannot gain a single Reform vote by going right. It will never be far-right enough.
Saying that Reform are correct and using their rhetoric in speeches and changing your policies to theirs is NOT how you defeat them, or run a country.

Replace Starmer, quickly. At the very least.

And so what is the purpose of this thread, other than to vent into an online echo-chamber? I think it's a request to a call to action. It's a call out to everyone who currently resides - whether you like it or not - in a Labour controlled constituency and has a labour MP.

You can easily find out the details, together with links to their speeches and/or voting records, from service such as They Work For You.
Check the details of your MP, and especially their stance on immigration and other matters important to you, then email them.

Yes. I actually think these threads are positive because we are actually discussing it and what it means for the UK. I mean given the absolute stories in the last decade then this is yards better: active discussion serves democracy much better than tribal agreement

Yes and we can all spout liberal sentiments when we have no personal experience of mass immigration affecting our towns, can’t we? Other countries are far stricter. No wonder we’re seen as a soft touch and word gets passed around.

Let’s hope Starmer is able to implement all this

How do Labour supporters say some stuff with a straight face. Up until Starmer said go it was all that’s racist dog whistle attacks.

Honestly they deserve to lose.

nation states have a history and a culture. This is much disparaged by the left (for want of a better word) but, without these, what is a nation?

People have history and culture. Nation states are arbitrary lines on a map drawn by leaders. They didn't even really exist until the 17th century. Now it may be a concept that speaks to you and that you can get behind, but the idea of a "nation" is not some immutable and eternal truth. It's a relatively recent political invention and it has arguably caused a lot of unnecessary problems.

Totally agree @BisiBodiI’m so glad I left before they were elected.

You clearly haven’t endured the heartbreak of seeing an elderly parent or relative slowly die of dementia.

I have. My siblings and our dc saw our wonderful mother slowly die of dementia. It wasn’t a happy decline either - from being easy going and cheerful she became angry and occasionally violent to her carers, and then would spend long periods crying and moaning. Eventually she recognised no one but still her heart kept beating. It was heartbreaking for all of us and I am glad our father had died before seeing the woman he loved suffering like this.
That is I would like to have the option of voluntary euthanasia.
Voluntary being the key word - what other people do is entirely up to them.

How do Labour supporters say some stuff with a straight face. Up until Starmer said go it was all that’s racist dog whistle attacks.

I am also surprised by this. If a Tory had said that about a country of strangers, mumsnet would have gone up like the Bikini atoll mushroom cloud and anyone who dared agree with the Tory would’ve been chased off the site.

@HauntedBungalow ,

This is the kind of liberal left well written but ultimately meaningless rubbish that really irritates me.

’people have a history and culture’

What do you mean by people?

You are being incredibly pedantic. From pre history groups of people have congregated in tribes and claimed areas of land as their own. Arguably this is as basic as protecting their own genetic code.

Each group had oral histories, traditions etc that were passed down and encouraged loyalty and mutual sacrifice.

Now, over time there was commingling and some traditions changed but, not overnight, other than by conquest and, even then reluctantly.

You are clearly a ‘citizen of everywhere’ with your values being about shops, hotel chains, maybe global trends. You are probably as comfortable in London, Paris, New York or Tokyo, as long as you stay in the nicest bits. You don’t recognise your tribalism, but that is your tribe You would probably be far less comfortable in some of the less well off areas in the U.K. (as would I to be fair).

But, people die for their country and flag (look at Roman legionnaires). Rubbishing national culture is not the way to a cohesive society.

Depressingly, I don't think a Tory would have said what he did. I mean, I don't think they'd have gone so far. He's a cos-playing twit trying on ideas for votes and because these aren't his own beliefs he can't gauge when he's gone beyond.

That is so so dumb.

It is something I would expect a naive teenage girl to say.

You really don't see the issue with not having borders?

Do you have a fence surrounding your house? Tear it down then
Do you have a front door? Leave it open then

Honestly, it is just so dumb it's hard to even believe that a grown woman would say this

So who did you vote for then? Who should lead the Labour Party instead?

Even a left wing commentator on the news today said don’t believe anything he says , he’s basically a snake . Not a ringing endorsement from his own side . Difference is those on the right have known all along and the left are just discovering it .

@Newbutoldfather by people I mean : people! What on earth did you think I meant?

People think things, they create things, they live, they are history and they are culture.

They are of course tribal and always have been. But a nation state is a tribe created by top-down power, force and artifice - for example, the English have not had an English monarch since 1066.

As I said, that model of tribalism may speak to you. But your forefathers from a few centuries ago would be bemused by it.

@TheQuickRobin Nursing numbers could easily be sorted out by all the fully trained but deregistered nurses in the UK returning to the register.

Many are not currently nursing because of the pay and conditions that have been driven right down over the past 20 years. Yes, there are some higher band nurses doing well, but most hospital nurses have terrible working conditions and this is where no one wants to work, because it's unsafe to be there.

It's not just pay, it's more conditions, leadership, safety, investment in staff.

The education and skills that nurses have are huge and it's not hard to find work in other industries that is lower stress and better pay. Nursing pay must be improved - at all levels, including care/health care assistants.

It would also be possible to quickly ramp up nursing staff through rapid investment/training in Health care assistants - the increase in skills of their role over the past 20 years is astonishing - they are now doing much of the skilled work of registered nurses of past years - at Band 2/3. Band 2/3 by the way is barely above minimum wage.

Overseas nurses have been a plaster on a festering ulcer for years. It's time to actually do the hard underlying work of holistic wound healing.

You really don't see the issue with not having borders?

Borders in themselves don't solve so many problems. Indeed I see many instances of borders causing issues.

Look at a map of the world showing the outlines of nation states - showing borders. Now look at a map of the world showing conflicts and observe the concurrence. Look more closely at where the greatest number of deaths are. You'll see they spike at areas of straight lines, where the earth has been divided up by men with measuring rods. That is humanity betrayed by borders.

This line of thinking with the immigration debate is to clown fish of gender discourse.😁

Yes I'm sure you're right. We should get back to focusing on how we can "cure" immigration by introducing Logan's bloody Run.

No, you won't see me championing Leadbeater's assisted suicide laws, I think it's a shit storm of unintended consequences.

I'd go further actually - I think it's a politically expedient solution to the ageing demographic crisis.

People like to blame those who have nothing. Smoke and mirrors are used all the time. What is shit, is that you can work 60 hrs a week, in a low-skilled job, and still not afford to be able to feed your family, or pay housing costs.Whose fault is this? The rich just keep getting richer on the backs of the poor.

As for the nation state thing, I only challenged it in order to attempt to define terms that are often cast around in an emotional, incoherent and inaccurate way.

@HauntedBungalow ,

‘Look at a map of the world showing the outlines of nation states - showing borders. Now look at a map of the world showing conflicts and observe the concurrence. Look more closely at where the greatest number of deaths are. You'll see they spike at areas of straight lines, where the earth has been divided up by men with measuring rods. That is humanity betrayed by borders.’

That is like saying that the most sick people are seen in hospital, so the cure for disease is to knock down the hospitals.

Who are your tribe and what is your value set? I am going to go for a wild guess and go for wealthy polyglot people, most of whom live in London with an average salary in the top decile!

Walking around the bigger cities such as Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester and many of their suburbs you quickly realise unchecked migration is on its way to becoming a serious problem. Lots of the streets are filled with Deliveroo riders, Turkish barbers, Takeaways and strewn with litter and debris, everything feels very disjointed and unsustainable long term.

Something has to change and it’s telling that it took a Labour PM to call it out.

@Newbutoldfather I am in fact a Dubai based influencer who has previously appeared on MAFS Australia.

😁😁😁😁

I'm not taking any grief from an Aussie about national borders, immigration and national identity. Put the water canons down and step away.