About the worrisome trends of fascists/authoritarians

[MsAmerica]

I normally don't bother adding to threads that get insanely long, so I thought I would separately mention this:

I'm heartened by the posters here who are rightly worried about Trump and others like him.

And I'd like to mention a book I've just finished:

How Democracies Die
By Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/562246/how-democracies-die-by-steven-levitsky-and-daniel-ziblatt/

The hyperbole in your question OP is ridiculous. "Facists" and "authoritarians". People just voted for the republican candidate rather than the democratic one because they preferred a centre right wing way of running their country economically rather than left wing. That doesn't make them morally bad or stupid, in the same way it doesn't mean you are morally good or clever ticking the democrat box. It just means you think the country's economy should be run differently (which is what it essentially boils down to). All this rubbish about facists. It's the same here in that everyone thinks Labour are commies or marxists (well, I do!) when they are probably just centre left and crap.

I bet a lot of people voted Trump just to annoy the sanctimonious Kamala fans. And will carry on doing so unless the left mend their attitude.

Talk about an own goal.

In your opinion. Maybe not the people who voted for the Republicans and who won as well. Perhaps annoying the left is an added bonus. I don't know..but calling Republican voters "ill-educated" and that they should have an intelligence test to be allowed to vote (and then the OP claiming she knows what a democracy is which amused me as it implies she thinks she has basic intelligence herself) probably doesn't endear people to your cause? Still..the smugness is coming home to roost now. TDS is a real thing. The Democrats will need (and probably get ) a nice long time out of power to reflect on how being utter twats to voters has worked out so well for their cause.

I think many people are going to sit back, relax and watch Trump 2.0. Enjoy.

Not in the US so it's not my lane. I'm just appalled by our own set of authoritarians currently in charge of the UK.

Could you elaborate on what you think is so obvious, @Nordione1?

From your wording, you're implying it's reasonable to vote in a way that will hurt the country as long as you derive enjoyment of annoying others?

No not really. It would just be an added bonus to annoy people who have been abusive to them "the deplorables", call them stupid, facists etc. No one is going to vote for those sorts of people so would be pretty pleased if they lost. It's called Schadenfreude.

The point of a democracy is one person one vote. You decide how to vote yourself but you don't get to decide how other people vote; thats their business. People walk in their own shoes through life and have their own worries and interests and morals and standards. What your interests and morals are might be completely different from someone else's. It doesn't make you right or better than them nor does it make you wrong or worse. It's just how you personally see the world and luckily you have your one vote to express that view. There's no one big judge overseeing everything and approving whether your vote is good and the other is bad. It's just your own personal subjective opinion.
You insult all the people who have voted differently from how you see the world, thinking them morally bad or stupid. That's just your own view. But you are saying it about millions of Americans who have voted Republican. This is not a fringe party or a party with extreme views. It's the party that most people who voted think will be best for the country. There will be many people voting that way who are far far cleverer than you..they can still vote how they see fit and if they vote republican it doesn't suddenly make them no longer clever and so that you can call them illeducated. How illeducated would you need to be to have the gall to say that about people you don't know?

My thoughts about the left is that they aren't that bright themselves and are shooting themselves in the foot. Presumably they want power one day. So they need to persuade the republican voters onto their side, as currently there are more of them than Democrat voters. The more they abuse Republican voters (they are stupid, ill educated, we know what's best they don't etc) the less that's going to happen. So they will be out of power for a good long time until they stop being twats to other people.

This is all obvious. Your whole thread is painful to read. Smug and condescending with absolutely no self-awareness. I'm not American but if I read your thread I'd think Democrats were not good people and vote the other way.

I'm sorry, but no. The Republican party has indeed become fringier - and that's not just my opinion. It's widely held among historians and political analysts. President Eisenhower wouldn't recognize the twisted nature of Trump's party.

But, yes, you're right that I do think that people who want to interfere with black voters, take away women's bodily autonomy, reduce access to health care, buddy up to authoritarian rulers, allow companies to wreak environmental damage, reduce funding for schools are indeed "morally bad or stupid."

By the way, I consider that "deplorables" was a charmingly polite word. Most people would probably consider "vicious morons" more accurate.

They're such hypocrites and whiny little snowflakes. Trump calls Democrats vermin, scum, evil, crazy, the enemy of the people and threatens to put them in prison, on and on for hundreds of vicious remarks. They love it. Yet the little crybabies are still traumatized by a single comment about deplorables from 2016. They actually think they are the victims of bullying, when clearly and unequivocally it's their side that is doing that.

I just don't think that charming approach will win back the "vicious morons" that voted for Trump and you do need those if you ever want to win again. Numerically speaking. Oh well. Being in power is overrated. You've told them what you really think of all of them so that's the main thing.

If I may - if I understand you correctly, I completely agree that Trumpers are whiny, hypocritical bullies.

However, I don't think they are "traumatized" by Hillary's comment about "deplorables." Their problem is that Dems don't tend to use the same vicious language, not the same vicious violent rhetoric, so Trumpers have much less to fuss about. Similarly, Reps can't easily focus on policy, and Dems don't have the same degree of criminality, so Trumpers resort to fixating on totally unimportant things like VP candidate Tim Walz having supported the availability of tampons in schools.

I was being sardonic. They act traumatized, but of course they are not.
I agree with your assessment.

because they preferred a centre right wing way of running their country economically rather than left wing.

I'm curious as to what specific economic policies of Trump's qualify as centre right?

I think people have just lost faith in institutions to safeguard citizens interests. If you are a normal middle of the road american what do you see when you open the NYT or the Washpo (I’m a subscriber). People supporting men in girls sports, people suggesting that illegal immigration isn’t that bad, people quietly supporting campus protests. It must feel like what you may see as the “elites” support chaos.

I’m deeply concerned that Trump will damage democratic norms and institutions but if I’m being honest they are already damaged. I do think there is an authoritarian bent but I wonder if people have voted for him because they believe they need an authoritarian to course correct in some way and they are less likely to be put off by newspapers giving them bad press or admonition from the progressive left (who I don’t see as actually left wing in the traditional sense, I think they are a new thing entirely).

I think progressive politics has been toxic for the left wing and they should jettison it asap.

I read a really interesting article by Matthew Syed in “The Times” about how people have assumed he has become really right wing because of how he’s been writing recently (he stood as a Labour candidate at one point). And he points out that he hasn’t, it’s just that the overton window has shifted (he blames the tories as well for this). He considers himself a centrist.

No idea. Presumably as an American you will be interested in having a look to see what you think for yourself and see if any of Trumps policies can be seen to be mainstream. The markets seem to be happy anyway and that's a good indicator.

Realistically it won't be a extreme hard right government no matter how the left try and spin it so try not to panic. I suspect there won't be too much mandated white supremacism for example but correct me if I'm wrong.

Perhaps I should also point out that Trump appears to be as ignorant about economics as he is about most other things, and any "policies" people imagine he has are likely just talking points fed to him by others.

I have had a look and have been looking all along, and no, I don't think they're particularly mainstream, and neither do most reputable economists. The markets are actually only an indicator of the markets, not the economy in the longer term. i.e. Brexit made a lot of money for some people but has damaged the economy for most. As someone with a lot of money invested, I'm actually quite concerned about the long term implications of Trump's policies.

But the question was specifically to you as to which of his policies you see as centre right as you stated voters were happy with those.

I actually think they're mostly random things he comes up with off the cuff, leaving those around him trying to mop up the damage. I definitely see Howard Lutnick (who is a cunt, but who understands finance) sweating buckets over how to talk him down on tariffs.

I don't know. You're an American I'm assuming, so will know more than I. But a cursory look at what he promised (although as we learn from Labour, promises are often broken.....);

Decent tax cuts
Housebuilding
Trade tariffs..not great but not nazi fascist
Wall at the border and clamp down on illegals
Ambivalent re abortion law. TBA I assume
Encouraging NATO members to spend 2%
Supports Israel
Won't cut Medicare
Crush gang violence and refund the the police

I don't have skin in the game to support Trump or oppose him like you, but none of that screams the second coming of Hitler. Just wait and see what happens before you judge his actions and don't believe everything that is fired at you from CNN.

...to make sure that people vote in the correct way

Having control of media outlets that spew misinformation has a lot to answer for. Both in the US and the UK

Because having the state control the media has worked out so well in the past hasn't it? Pravda?

In addition to this then having the state define what is misinformation and what is information.

I think what this post clearly (whether intentionally or unintentionally) shows is the sinister nature of the left in firstly having the state define what is "information " and secondly state controlled media.

@1dayatatime
Why jump straight to state control. Utterly bizarre response. There just shouldn't be a relative monopoly. Murdoch has been very damning for the UK.

Completely agree. I'm sick of the right wing press pushing the interests of their billionaire owners.

And misinformation is off the charts.

@username7891
Exactly this . Elon musk and X is also an issue but it's good to see balance from other platforms.

Brexit, Trump, Putin the victim all these things are being pushed by misinformation by right wing billionaires.