The Westminster Arms

[DustyDiamond]

Shiny new thread 😍😍

The Westminster Arms:
A non-partisan politics pub-thread for varied political chit-chat & other such stuff

Cheers all 🍷

At what point does the past become far enough away, in your opinion, that pp shouldn't impose their mores on it?

The two things can be separated; GR Elton saw the duty of historians as empirically gathering evidence and objectively analysing what the evidence has to say. Even the Walloons manage (just) to acknowledge that Wellington won Waterloo!

People at the time were shocked and horrified when they found out about the concentration camps, so that isn't imposing the mores of today. Are you my son? We have this discussion all the time at home; one of the joys of having a son with a First in History and an MA as well. We can't erase the past; we cannot change it either. We can examine it dispassionately (or not) and see how it shapes us now, what we should take from it, and what we should discard. I don't think we can understand the past if we try to judge it with the mores of today or through the lens of today either.

I had a discussion once online with a 20 year old who was very critical of the WWI generals, and they should have known 'x' 'y' and 'z'. Trying to point out that there were delays in communication, no satellites, radar, very little aerial surveillance etc fell on stony ground. He could not wrap his head around the fact that surveillance and comms were very different in Flanders in 1914-18 from say Kosovo or Iraq all those decades later and that the immediacy of modern communications and computer driven defence analysis were not available. The WWI Generals did not have all the information available to a modern Commander today and thus their decision making was, to his eyes, lacking.

It's not just our mores that we consciously (or unconsciously impose), but we forget at times that there weren't bathrooms, inside loos, quick methods of communications, health care; all the things that we take for granted today. Life was ‘nasty, brutish, and short’ to quote Hobbes and without the scaffolding that shores ours up. We try to judge or examine the past from a place of infinitely greater comfort than ever existed before and I don't think that necessarily works.

Sorry I shouldn't have engaged, I got drawn in. I am sure Sir Starmers nobility wont cost him the next election. It will be his greyness and strict adherence to Corbynism that will. The working class have spoken and its Conservatism that answered.

Morning, all,

Parliament returns today for the first working week of the new era and the HoC proceeds to the Second Reading of the Agriculture Bill, followed by an Adjournment for Tax Policy and Netflix.

I misread that the first time and thought, “Idle lot, brazenly watching Netflix on the taxpayers’ time. Where’s ClassicDom when you need him?”. However, it transpires that Dame Margaret Hodge is leading a debate about tax and Netflix. Netflix generated £1.1 billion in income last year but paid not a penny in UK tax. Subscribers are billed through a Netherlands-registered subsidiary that fronts a series of shell companies in tax havens. Netflix even had the cheek to pocket £52k in taxpayers’ money under an incentive scheme. Dame Margaret wants to put a stop to that and to Netflix’s tax avoiding ways.

The Agriculture Bill, on the other hand, is described on NFUonline as “a very significant piece of legislation for English farmers”. It focuses on food security, organic farming and sustainability, fairness in the supply chain, assistance during times of exceptional market disturbance, and a number of tenancy reform elements. It will also guarantee CAP level funding for this year. On the whole, it has been welcomed by the NFU as it addresses a large number of concerns raised by farmers, although some issues remain, particularly around trade deals and associated standards.

The complimentary breakfast at the Arms is always responsibly sourced from British farmers as a sign of our solidarity with them. This morning, it’s cheese and ham toasties (Cheddar, Wiltshire ham and Warburtons bread - Bolton's finest). Please help yourselves.

Kettle’s on ☕️☕️☕️

Just catching up with what I missed last night before work.

Guernsey - isn't it Macron who's now insisting on 25 years fishing rights in our waters? Could this be a little poke in his eye I wonder?

Anyway, gotta go... thanks for the toastie Singing. Have a good day all. 😊

GR Elton saw the duty of historians as empirically gathering evidence and objectively analysing what the evidence has to say.

Exactly so, Scary. As any fule kno, their source material is inevitably tainted with the baggage and mores of the past and it’s their job to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Samuel Pepys’ Diary is riven with evidence of corruption, fraud, nepotism, gross misconduct, incompetence and negligence at every level of the Navy, Parliament, the monarchy, and society in general. His morals were reprehensible and it would be easy these days to write him off on those grounds alone (as well as the basis of a few soundbites taken out of context) but we would also lose a valuable eye witness account of life during the Restoration and particularly during the Great Fire.

I remain puzzled, though, as to why he thought burying a wheel of Parmesan might be a good idea, even if he thought it might protect it from the Great Fire. Still, good to know that even in 1666, Britain was still able to import fine Italian foods despite the best efforts of the marauding Dutch fleets and in the absence of any trade agreement.

Even the Walloons manage (just) to acknowledge that Wellington won Waterloo!

In the same way as the Australians acknowledge the result of the 2003 Rugby World Cup. Through gritted teeth, as I recall. England’s (and Jonny Wilkinson’s) victory got scant mention in a tiny paragraph buried on the back page of the Sydney Morning Herald. If Australia had won, it would have splashed all over the front page in the biggest font available and we would never have heard the last of it.

Morning, Greenish. I suspect the Islanders have waited a long long time for this moment. The fishing agreement with the French fell outside EU reach but expired naturally with Brexit. Never cross an Islander. They have long memories.

Morning all

Thank you for that post scary - it articulates perfectly the feelings I have re applying today's mores to history.

I find it irritating beyond belief when people try to drag others into the purity spiral (mentioned earlier).

Very, very, very few people (if any) are not 'problematic' (hate that expression) in some way or another 🤷🏻‍♀️

Even JK Rowling is persona non grata now ffs 🙄

Seeing as I'm a forgiving sort, I'd allow France access to the FISH we catch from our water for the next 25 years 😅
Trying to keep up, but the content here is just so good and re-readable that I'm dragging along behind you all!
And I'm minesweeping all the delicious food!

Morning, Dusty,

I've read the work of several writers sympathetic to the IRA, in an effort to understand and found them readable.

I hate the IRA but now I learn that if I'm in tune with someone's politics, I'll find them readable. I'm really really concerned that I never knew readability was so closely associated with one's political and personal philosophies.

Joking. I couldn't give a monkey's.

Morning, Boswell.

I’ve read several biographies of Thatcher but still hasn’t changed by opinion that she was wicked and a disaster for members of the UK public.

Ah, but did you find the author readable?

That's the burning question.

Morning all and thanks again Singing for the toasties and the round up.
I don't have netflicks and I won't be getting it until they pay their tax. I admire Margaret Hodge and if she can't sort Netflicks out, nobody can.
I am still amused at Guernsey shouting at France. I bet France were too busy trying to bully us and took their eye off Guernsey. Wonder what Jersey will do?
I am going to enjoy my toastie, some coffee from the Pwaor Dom machine and catch up with the papers.
My join in the questioning of Sir Static later.

Morning all. Coffee and cheese toasties; what a way to start the day.
Thanks Lily

I'm imagining all the senior Tory MPs scuttling to their offices after morning briefings, to get on with long overdue urgent business after 4 years of indecision. It's refreshing to see business resuming, although remarkably, the good people of this nation have carried on keeping the country ticking over throughout the shambles of recent years.

Anyone have any idea when the reshuffle will be. I think it will give us an indication of what to expect re the North, HS2 and trade.
I do hope he keeps to his word about fishing.
I love it that Pwaor Dom has said not only is it not on the table but it is not in the room.

Couldn't resist this.

Came across this while scrolling back to find Lily's long Sunday post that I didn't have time to read...

I have a theory, that Nige’s next gig, as disruptor in chief, will be to head off to the next ‘brexitty’ EU country to advise.... can you imagine if he ended up back in the EU parliament on a different team altogether?

Epic I just can't allow myself to imagine that scene.

Epic and Hospitality,
Imagine Nige standing as an MEP in France. He would probably get elected.

Can't see Varadaker surviving the ROI election.

Oh! Finally. Some peace and quiet, I’ll enjoy it before the late shift starts. Always so busy at the same time!

Lily, breakfast looks lush!

And I could quite see Nige being all ‘vive la revolution’ as Frexit Man. 😂 (terrible superhero name).

Morning all

Varadkar was not sounding confident on Marr yesterday. His pitch seemed to be vote FG to lock out SF with the implication being that FF would form a coalition with SF. I don't know enough about Irish politics to know if that is a credible claim?

On a lighter note the Skynewspaper review was hysterical last night. The female commentator was asked for her views on #PhwaorDom's performance on Marr flexing the UK's muscles. Deadpan she said we've got 5 minutes and if we're discussing Dom's muscles we need at least 45 just for starters . Brendan O'Neil and the Sky anchor were completely non-plussed - they may have to step outside their bubble.

This from the Matthew Goodwin this morning which speaks to the discussion on Sir Static:

"It's now slowly dawning on liberals that if you want to defeat things you do not like you cannot rely on dry, technocratic, managerial, process politics. Parliamentary manoeuvres in UK failed & impeachment is failing in US. Populist era calls for ideas, not elite-led process"

He's commenting on a NYT opinion piece with the strapline: "One essential lesson of the Trump era is that likelihoods are not enough; if you want to end the Trump era only one thing will suffice," says @DouthatNYT. "You have to beat him."

Posting and dashing as bathroom cleaning is this morning's unavoidable necessity - comes to something when I have to declare my intent on the internet to actually galvanise myself to action. [bush]

[bush]?

Never mind the block button - I can manage ignoring everyone else's drivel it's my own that annoys me.

And on the subject of Netflix, I don’t use starbucks at all now due to their tax avoidance here and haven’t done for years, so if Netflix don’t get their act together I will happily do the same. I will admit to being a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to Amazon though , I can’t get around the convenience factor of Amazon, especially when living semi rural and not having easy access to some of the products available. But at least with Starbucks and Netflix these are a luxury product and therefore more easily avoidable I guess? 😬

I’m all for pressure on these huge companies to pay their fair share.

Hahaha. There’s a segment about to run on Jeremy Vine on whether Remainers who mock leavers should be facing Police action? 😂

I can’t help but laugh, I mean, to be honest I think that may be a tad harsh! 😬😂 But! I do think a good hard introspective at the behaviour of ‘some’ hardcore remainers, as whipped up merrily by the MSM, might be long overdue.

Everyone gets so het up about pro brexit frothing on the DM and the express, and I can’t say I disagree that there is an issue there, but why do the same people completely disregard the frothing and fervour that is whipped up in the independent and guardian in favour of awful bullying stereotypes of leavers and the disgusting ageism and classism against them? (which is often not even accurate in relation to the vote anyway.) How about comedians and shitty BBC panel shows? History will not favour these people as well as they think it will. Despite the as yet unknown outcomes of Brexit.

I will sit back and prepare to get flamed now, for my ‘victim mentality’.

Thank goodness! I thought I'd killed the thread by asking a question. I'll try not to do that again, at least for today.

Missed the Sky press preview last night but will just leave this here for anyone else who missed it too...

Also, I would just like to add, that it’s always been very obvious that the MSM have bent over backwards to find people to interview that fit their leave/remain stereotypes too. I once saw a bbc piece, where for the leave side, they hung around outside a betting shop and a proper ‘local’ pub in a working class town, but for the remain side, sought out middle class, coffee shop dwellers reading the guardian at the table. No lie. And this was a scene repeated over and over again.

Morning Lily!