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The Westminster Arms

877 replies

DustyDiamond · 31/01/2020 21:11

Shiny new thread 😍😍

The Westminster Arms:
A non-partisan politics pub-thread for varied political chit-chat & other such stuff

Cheers all 🍷

The Westminster Arms
OP posts:
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23
time4chocolate · 02/02/2020 19:03

😢for all concerned and 😮Epic if that does in fact turn out to be the case.

Incident also reported in Belgium, two injured and the attacker shot in the hand by police. Too early to say if the two are linked in any way.

EpicIndividual · 02/02/2020 19:13

Could have just been my eyesight in fairness Time, but it will be interesting to find out.

Also, bad news about Belgium too. 😞

HateIsNotGood · 02/02/2020 19:59

Not wishing to detract from recent events but in answer to Miljea earlier - yes I'm very aware of how the not insignificant 16+ million people who voted to remain in the EU feel because they have had a very significant voice telling all and sundry how they feel.

Apparently, amongst all their well-voiced and supported feelz - they are way better at protecting and supporting 'minorities' than anyone else.

Therefore I'm rather surprised that the same people don't support the indigeneous minorities (eg: UK fisherman and farmworkers) with such vigour too.And with complete disregard for their culture and beliefs, considering them too insignificant to even differentiate for.

SingingLily · 02/02/2020 20:00

Thank you, Epic, and I don't think it was just your eyes. I think you were right. We'll probably find out for sure tomorrow.

Time to revisit TPIMs. They don't work.

That's sad news about Belgium too, Time4.

Hope everyone is OK. Drinks on the bar...

🍷🥂🍹🍺🧉🍸

EpicIndividual · 02/02/2020 20:10

Oooooh! I’m intrigued at the coconut looking cocktail! I hope it’s a non alcoholic Pina Colada! 🤩

Coppersulphate · 02/02/2020 20:13

Just got back.
Loving the discussion.
Hope you found a way to clear the mildew in the cellar. It does seem pretty persistent. But there are times when it is better to ignore such things.
Love the questions to Sir Static. Bet he doesn't answer them. Let's see.
I like the idea that Classic Dom was overcome with emotion. Eventually I would like to see him shake up the HoL.

I think Boris will hold the line about alignment and fishing. He has a majority of 80 behind him and the support of the country. Nobody can question his mandate after such a recent GE.

I have friends who are Labour Party members and they are all going for Lisa Nandy. Admittedly they are in Wigan. She would certainly be my choice. I think she is the only one with credibility with the electorate outside the big cities
Terrible news about the terrorist attack in London. My DD and her family are only about a mile away.
Worrying times. So tragic for 3 families.
💐💐💐💐💐

Coppersulphate · 02/02/2020 20:18

As I was driving this evening I listened to File On Four which was about facial recognition being used by the Met police and others and also by private firms in the hope of reducing crime.

Civil Liberty organisations are objecting, but I don't mind how many times they capture my image because I have done nothing wrong. And if it helps capture only one serious criminal it will be ok with me.

ommmward · 02/02/2020 20:24

It's a very interesting question about the extent to which one takes into account the preferences of the losing side effects n a democratic vote, because it's a zero sum game.

More voters didn't want a conservative government than did. That doesn't mean we get a coalition of non-conservatives, because that's not how fptp works. Under that electoral system, 43% ish of the vote was enough for a very healthy majority. (Against 32% of the vote, which was the next best total, for labour).

Similarly, the 2016 referendum was a binary vote. In or out. The majority said "out please". I know we aren't really accustomed to referenda in this country as a regular thing, but since it was binary, the answer couldn't be "a little bit out but not really". You can't fudge a binary.

Losers consent is key. It was withheld for over three years, and I didn't approve of that approach then. I really don't approve of it now. And I don't understand it.

Coppersulphate · 02/02/2020 20:25

The thread will only be derailed if we allow it to be.
I will not engage.
I will stay calm and welcome people in peace.

hospitalityinspector · 02/02/2020 20:32

Evening all. Looks like it's been a lively afternoon in the bar with lots of meaningful conversations going on. I've enjoyed reading.

Thoughts to all caught up in the Streatham incident, and with all the services involved. Brave people trying to keep us all safe. Flowers

Some great questions awaiting Sir Static. I hope he doesn't suffer the same post-MN webchat fate as Jess Phillips. I had to laugh at some of the colourful user-names he may choose to reply to. There are some beauties. Imagine him typing some of them out? He might need brain bleach. He'll look more startled than ever. Grin

Silvery have you finished all your clearing out? You must be exhausted.

WeSavedSallySally · 02/02/2020 20:58

No mention of this attack in papers on line.

Just watching it on sky news.

I can't wait remember when l last saw a policeman where I live, patrolling etc.. Nothing for ages.
It's clear we need more police on the ground, and man being interviewed said not enough specialists...

Walkingdeadfangirl · 02/02/2020 21:02

Why do the 16+ million minority of remainers need protecting or treated differently? They are getting the exact same deal and treatment that the 17+ million leavers majority are given. Its literally equality.

hospitalityinspector · 02/02/2020 21:03

The Britannia Arms Grin. Own up! Who was taking the photos on Friday night and released them to the Daily Fail? Happy hour every hour haha. The Flag looks a bit quiet Wink

MarySidney · 02/02/2020 21:08

No mention of this attack in papers on line.

The Telegraph is reporting it.

WeSavedSallySally · 02/02/2020 21:08

Because its not want they want you see.

So it's not fair.

scaryteacher · 02/02/2020 21:16

This was in the DFt yesterday and I thought it was very measured.

'“Nothing can save England if she will not save herself,” Winston Churchill told his countrymen on St George’s Day 1933. “If we lose faith in ourselves, in our capacity to guide and govern, if we lose our will to live, then indeed our story is told.”

Now that Britain has reclaimed her sovereign independence, our generation has stated boldly that we still have faith in ourselves as a nation, that we believe in our capacity to guide and govern ourselves, and that our story is not yet told.

The word “historic” is bandied about far too often nowadays. Scarcely a day goes by when we aren’t told by some commentator on the television or radio that a parliamentary vote, or a politician’s speech, or even a sports match, was “historic”, whereas in fact they are almost immediately and deservedly forgotten.

This is an exception to that doleful phenomenon, however. January 31 2020 will ring down the ages as genuinely historic: when Britain showed the world that it has regained the indomitable will to live as an independent nation.

After more than 46 years in the European Union, Britain has boldly stepped out on its own, taking a risk, certainly, but then which great historic national action has not involved some element of risk? By stating that no foreign law shall henceforth have jurisdiction over British law, we have thrown away the jurisprudence comfort blanket and become an adult, taking ultimate responsibility for our own choices and actions again.

“Where, by divers sundry old authentic histories and chronicles,” starts the Act in Restraint of Appeals of 1533, “it is manifestly declared and expressed that this realm of England is an empire, and so hath been accepted in the world.” By banning appeals to Rome and therefore making King Henry VIII the final arbiter of Britain’s laws, the Act was a key document of the Reformation. Even the Act of Supremacy of 1534 which made Henry the supreme head of the Church of England was not so important when it came to defining us as a self-governing country. Crucially, the word “empire” in that context merely meant a self-governing state, and had nothing to do with the later British Empire that spread across the globe in the following half-millennium.

What happened at 11pm last night was effectively to return to that status quo ante, the situation that existed for the 440 years between the Act in Restraint of Appeals and Britain joining the European Economic Community in 1973. Those Leftists and Remainers who sneeringly allege that the Leave vote of June 2016 was a nostalgic, doomed attempt to return to the days of nineteenth-century British Empire could not be more wrong.

For it was in fact a hopeful, proud attempt to return to the days of the sixteenth-century, Henrician meaning of the word empire, which simply and merely meant a country that governed itself. We are now going back to the days when no foreign power is able to alter or countermand the laws made here, by our Commons and Lords and signed into law by our monarch.

Brexiteers were not necessarily voting to be richer as a result of being free and independent. One of the most oft-repeated tropes of the Remainers was that “No-one voted to be worse off”. Yet in fact Brexiteers knew perfectly well that there was indeed a good chance of being poorer as a result of their brave leap into the pre-1973 constitutional arrangements. Even if one-tenth of the predictions of Project Fear turned out to have been accurate, it would still have a significant monetary cost to them. Yet they voted for independence anyhow, which is itself a magnificent reminder of the sheer courage (and perhaps bloody-mindedness) of the British people.

Winston Churchill’s father Lord Randolph Churchill coined the phrase “Trust the people”, and its truth was reiterated in the European referendum on 23 June 2016, when the British proved once again in their long history – as evidenced by “divers sundry old authentic histories and chronicles” – that they can be trusted to do the patriotic thing when given the choice. (It was of course outrageous that the Establishment refused to give them that choice for over four decades between 1975 and 2016).

The dictionary definition of patriotism is to have “zeal for the rights and freedoms of one’s country”, an almost perfect explanation of the motives of those who voted Leave in June 2016, and who looked with increasing astonishment and frustration as almost every single element in the Establishment sought to subvert their will, at least until they were able to make their voices heard at the polls on December 12 last year. Boris Johnson, who sees himself in the same Tory Democracy political tradition as Lord Randolph Churchill, knew that if he trusted the people, all would be well. And it was.

So what can those 440 years as an independent nation teach us about the world to which we finally returned at 11pm last night? John Cabot had already sailed for Newfoundland 36 years before the Act in Restraint of Appeals, and the process that led to British global trading had therefore already started in earnest. We now must similarly look outward as much as possible, actively seeking out new markets beyond the European Union, whether we have trade deals with those places or not – we don’t presently with either China or America, for example, but it doesn’t stop us trading with them.

Nothing will so disprove the Remainers’ lie that Brexit was a Little Englander plot than a growth in our trade with the rest of the world, beyond the hegemony of Brussels. In the unlikely event that we leave the EU trading system with no deal in 11 months’ time, there are further historical parallels from which we can take solace.

Under the Berlin Decree of 1806 and the Milan Decree of 1807, Napoleon Bonaparte announced a total blockade of all British trade with Europe. The policy was entitled “The Continental System” and, under it, all trade with Britain was banned, British ships in European ports were confiscated, and British merchants were arrested as prisoners of war. This was a far worse outcome even than anything Michel Barnier might contemplate after a no-deal Brexit, yet it did not destroy the British economy as Napoleon had intended.
Britain traded and invested all over the world throughout the nine-year operation of the Continental System up until the Battle of Waterloo

Instead, Britain looked to the rest of the world; she invested in and traded with Asia, Africa, the Near East and Latin America throughout the nine-year operation of the Continental System up to the Battle of Waterloo in 1815. Napoleon might even be thought of as ultimately responsible for the diversifying of British trading outlets, and thus as one of the founders of the next, genuinely imperial, phase of the British Empire. Attempting to impose the Continental System led him into the two wars in the Iberian Peninsula and the Russian Campaign of 1812 that broke his power.

The law of unintended consequences is an iron one in human affairs, and if Ursula von Leyen and Guy Verhofstadt overreach themselves in their keenness to punish Britain for Brexit, and damage the European economies in the process while energising and diversifying Britain’s, it won’t have been the first time that has happened historically.

Mention of Napoleon reminds us of another reason that the Remainers’ trope about Leavers being Little Englanders is so very wide of the mark. Throughout her history, Britain has worked with friends and allies, and this will now become more important for us than at any time since we entered the EEC in 1973. A glance at our ancient capacity for coalition-building, however, should give us confidence.
Countries we defeated are now our allies

Membership of Nato predated our joining the EEC by nearly a quarter of a century, although you might not have recognised that from the dire warnings of isolationism and even World War Three that Project Fear came up with in the referendum campaign. We allied ourselves with the Dutch to defeat the threat to Britain posed by Philip II of Spain in the 1580s, then the Dutch, Germans and Portuguese to defeat Louis IV of France in the War of Spanish Succession, then with the Austrians, Germans, Spanish and Portuguese to defeat Napoleon, then the French, Italians, Americans, Belgians, Romanians, Portuguese and Greeks to defeat Kaiser Wilhelm II in the Great War, and lastly the Free French, Poles, Belgians, Dutch, Americans, Norwegians and many others to defeat Adolf Hitler in the Second World War.

Today every single one of those countries is our ally in Nato. None of that is going to change, further exploding the Remainers’ myth that there are any security implications to the step we are taking. Staying true to the old alliances that were described in “divers sundry old authentic histories and chronicles”, and the blood that was shed in the wars mentioned, Britain will be continuing her long historical tradition of maintaining the widest possible coalitions and alliances, while exhibiting no Little Englander tendencies such as the more historically illiterate Remainers suggest.

As we reconnect after today with our 440 years of sovereign independence, the immediate past 46 years of EU membership will seem more and more like a strange and rather sad aberration in our history, a moment when we lost our self-confidence in the early 1970s due to a lack of leadership – Edward Heath, Harold Wilson and Jeremy Thorpe were the three party leaders in 1973, for God’s sake! – along with a sense of losing an empire and not finding a role.
Enoch Powell had a clear vision but had become marginalised
Enoch Powell had a clear vision but had become marginalised Credit: PA

The 1970s were a dreadful time for Britain, with the Irish Troubles, oil prices quadrupling, miners strikes, a three-day week, and rising unemployment. Small wonder that the nation lost a belief in our “capacity to guide and govern”, and instead folded our fate into that of the other countries of the European Economic Community, which at the time few saw had any secret ambition to destroy British legislative autonomy. One of the few who did have that clearness of vision, Enoch Powell, had already marginalised himself politically by his remarks about mass immigration.

When exam questions are set about Brexit in a hundred years from now, enough time will have elapsed for history pupils to see that the 1973-2020 period was a weird moment of doubt and weakness in Britain, not at all indicative of the true nation as she really is. By contrast, they will recognise a proud, successful, self-governing nation state from 1533 to 1973, and then again from 2020 onwards. Even during the Dark Ages of Brussels’ hegemony over Britain from 1973 to 2020, however, there was a short period of pride, resistance and success throughout the whole of the 1980s, proving that the spark of British self-confidence was not dead.

Looking at our future relations with Europe from today onwards, another useful template has been given us by Winston Churchill. In November 1951, the newly re-elected premier told his Cabinet that the British attitude towards economic integration, “resembles that which we adopt about the European Army. We help, we dedicate, we play a part, but we are not merged with and do not forfeit our insular or Commonwealth character. It is only when plans for uniting Europe take a federal form that we ourselves cannot take part, because we cannot subordinate ourselves or the control of British policy to federal authorities.”

Boris Johnson, who always politely refers to “our European friends and allies”, whatever they are saying about him and however they are treating him, is in a perfect position to follow Churchill’s policy of helping and dedicating and playing a part, but resolutely doing nothing that subordinates or compromises our hard-won independence. A glorious new phase of British history has just begun.'

Andrew Roberts is the author of ‘Leadership in War’ published by Penguin.

scaryteacher · 02/02/2020 21:28

The Belgian incident was in Ghent.

Het Laatse Nieuws says (rough translation)

The Bevrijdingslaan Ghent is currently closed following the police as bystanders opened fire on a woman. Who would have attacked previously created two others with a knife. The shot woman was reportedly hit in the hand. A man was also beaten in shackles. The victims they are transferred attacked with a knife to the hospital, but are not in danger. The prosecutor refrain provisionally comment.

The Bevrijdingslaan deposited between Tulip Street and Acacia Street. A woman with dark skin would have attacked bystanders in the street two people with a knife. Either would thereby be hit in the abdomen. A police patrol was in the area, rushed the spot and intervened. The police could neutralize the attacker by shooting her in the hand. There was also a man arrested in the street, he would have been involved in the incident. A tent was set up for the wounded at the site. They were taken to hospital. It is not clear how they are, but they would not be in danger.

The police in East Flanders may attend only confirm that there has been an incident and is investigating the events.

Arseaboutdarkly · 02/02/2020 21:40

If you want to engage in the thread, do so - you're more than welcome

That's good to hear so maybe stop undermining that by telling people to start another thread etc when you don't like what they post?

Continuing on from my other post on trying to rubbish Starmer - calling him Sir Starmer isn't going to work either. If voters will vote for a bloated old-etonian bullingdon bully-boy then a title's not going to put them off.

WeSavedSallySally · 02/02/2020 21:53

Excellent article scary thank you.

I agree looking back, Brussels will seem like an odd blip.

Arseaboutdarkly · 02/02/2020 22:00

Enoch Powell had a clear vision but had become marginalised
Enoch Powell had a clear vision but had become marginalised Credit: PA
One of the few who did have that clearness of vision, Enoch Powell, had already marginalised himself politically by his remarks about mass immigration.

Got it.

SilverySurfer · 02/02/2020 22:02

Evening Hospitality hope you have had a good day. Second your thoughts for all those involved in Stratford. Do you think the police officer who killed the man will be given counselling? I know they are highly trained but it's still a pretty horrendous thing to have to take someone's life.

I'm currently in beached whale mode - more clearing out tomorrow and on tuesday sharing a skip with my neighbour and friend's husband is coming to haul it all out of the house into the skip.

Scaryteacher a very interesting article - thank you.

What does one have to do around here to get a portion of Lily's bread and butter pudding?

AutumnRose1 · 02/02/2020 22:04

Greenish glad your son is okay

It took some time to get in touch with my bestie but she’s fine.

There was barely a mention of the Whitemoor prison attack either. And this guy shouldn’t have been out of prison. I don’t agree there’s a fine balance between liberty and security; our current sentencing and probation systems are a joke.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 02/02/2020 22:06

bloated old-etonian bullingdon bully-boy

I dont know anyone who voted for Boris/Tories because he was bloated (whatever that means) or that he is old, or that he went to Eton or that he was in the Bullingdon club or even that he is a bully boy (whatever that means). That is pure Labour class warfare nonsense that most of the country put behind them a decade ago. #LabourIsntListening

Sir Starmer, Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath & Privy Councillor is a fully paid up member of the London liberal elite. And it is perfectly reasonable to point out to people he comes from a independent fee-paying grammar school background. The closest he has ever come to the working class was when someone acted as a miner in one of his Labour Leadership videos.

He might wear a grey suit but it puts him in the shade when it comes to charisma. I am still waiting to hear any policies that will rescue the Labour from the worm hole Corbyn has tunnelled them into. Static Sir Starmer is about as privileged and as identikit as a prefabricated shades of grey wall but only 1/3 as interesting. #LabourStillIsntListening

SingingLily · 02/02/2020 22:07

Thank you for the update re Ghent, Scary, and for the article by Andrew Roberts which I'm looking forward to reading later. He is someone whose work requires careful reflection and has to be taken in the round in order to fully appreciate it.

EpicIndividual · 02/02/2020 22:19

Hmm. Interesting articles. Some name checks that make me uncomfortable if I’m honest, but I have only skimmed it so far and maybe it will become clearer with further reading.

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