Trump vs Clinton Round 3. Probably the biggest debate ever.

[claig]

Oct 20th 2 am UK time.

Last chance for the Establishment to stop the Trump surge in the polls.
World leaders will be watching, Establishments will be tuning in on the edge of their seats in trepidation.

People will be laughing, diving into the popcorn and knocking back the alcohol.

Round 3. Rock'n'roll.

'if he does win he's going to lock HC up (the implication being that he would bypass the legal process to do so'

No, everything would be legal. He would reopen the FBI investigation into the emails etc. But people are saying that Obama may pardon her before he leaves anyway, so I am not sure what happens then and if that overrides any reopened investigations etc

But everything would be done according to law.

He would overturn Roe v.Wade.

He wants to punish women who have abortions.

How can any woman seriously want him to be president?

He said on record that he grabs women by the pussy and can do it because he is a celebrity.

He said women should be punished for having abortions.

He is a repugnant human being who is seriously deranged and I fear for the world if he is anywhere near real power.

Mistigirl - Nope. All knowledge is malleable. There is no universally accepted fact and never has been (hence the clash in cultures, which is really all about clash between knowledges). Those with influence, wealth and power get to define truth, even scientific truth < Copernican Revolution>.

But people are saying that Obama may pardon her before he leaves anyway

She hasn't been charged or convicted of anything so a pardon is a bit moot.

Bertrand, most women will not vote for him. I'd love to know how his wife will vote in the privacy of the ballot :)

The biggest shocker of the night was his response to the question of accepting the result of the election. Even the Wall Street Journal and Fox News are gobsmacked at that one - shows a complete lack of understanding of or indeed any interest in the US constitution and our democratic process.

He lost the election on the first part of the debate. At least 50% of the electorate do not want Rode vs Wade overturned. He was very cagey about it saying federally he would remove the rules and leave it to the individual states. That is not good enough. If a woman wants an abortion she should be able to have one. Making it illegal doesn't benefit anyone apart from a bunch of catholic priests who don't have families to feed.

He nailed her on the Clinton foundation. I though he could have done a lot better. I hated her suit. Wearing a white Mao suit as a nod towards the suffragettes movement turned me off. She is one of the most corrupt politicians we have here in the US. The only reason she is in the position she is in because of the millions she has paid to special interests and those who realize her incompetence.

After watching the debate last night I was left wishing Chris Christie was running on the Republican ticket. He would have wiped the floor with her last night.

I think the real issue with this election is that so many people, like myself, do not like either candidate. I think a lot of them will not vote.

'She hasn't been charged or convicted of anything so a pardon is a bit moot.'

Good point.

But I have heard it mentioned. Not sure how the legalties work in this.

"Trump demands Obama promise not to pardon Clinton"

edition.cnn.com/2016/09/30/politics/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-obama-pardon/

All knowledge is malleable. There is no universally accepted fact and never has been (hence the clash in cultures, which is really all about clash between knowledges). Those with influence, wealth and power get to define truth, even scientific truth < Copernican Revolution>

Where to start?

Culture is not the same as knowledge.

Scientific truth may be somewhat bent by influence and wealth, but not defined. You can't bend something that can't happen - as Trump has admitted when he's been looking for ways of protecting his coastal investments from rising sea levels (he can deny it, but he still has to live with the consequences of it happening...)

Of course there are universally accepted facts (except perhaps by the very ignorant or willfully blind). E.g. the Earth orbits the Sun; it takes an egg and a sperm to make a baby; water makes up about 70% of the Earth surface; and so on.

Why are you bringing in Copernicus???

Is this type of reasoning that leads you to be on Trump's side?

Obama may pardon her

Obama can't pardon her. She hasn't been convicted of anything!!

Trump can reopen the investigation(s) but unless he magics up new evidence... (oh wait, he knows all about rigged evidence already, doesn't he? :( ).

"Hillary will remain on the hook — unless Obama pardons her"

nypost.com/2016/07/06/hillary-will-remain-on-the-hook-unless-obama-pardons-her/

Making it illegal doesn't benefit anyone apart from a bunch of catholic priests who don't have families to feed.

It's not so much the Catholics in the US, is it, though?
My impression is that it's mostly the very conservative churches in the Republican centre states. The ones that indoctrinate for abstinence.

He nailed her on the Clinton foundation.
I don't think so. There isn't much to nail her on, in that respect, actually. Whereas he has actually used his own foundation to pay events to his own companies and buy a huge painting of himself, as well as some dodgy contributions possibly related to his own interests regarding lawsuits. And she reverted back the accusation, after clarifying that his accusations were lies.

Yes, I'm likely to form my opinions from random right wing op eds in the NY post ... not.

you might as well say that Trump will remain on the hook for sexual assault - unless Obama pardons him. Well you could say that in fact.

Despite the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the trumpites, Hillary Clinton was investigated by the FBI (an FBI clearly not sympathetic to her) and it was found that she should not be prosecuted for any possible crimes as there was no evidence of any criminal wrong doing. But, as with the election results, Trump is incapable of appreciating or complying with the most basic and most important tenets of US society - the rule of law, peaceful transition of power. I think he is intellectually incapable of understanding them myself, but even if he were capable, he doesn't care as he does not fundamentally believe in democracy or our legal process. I think he would do a lot better in Russia.

If elected (ha) he would probably ignore the FBI investigation and prosecute her and try to "lock her up" because his style of politics and jurisprudence is more suited to the Congo (and my apologies to the Congo) than US.

"But everything would be done according to law."

It already has been........

"Pardon of Richard Nixon

On September 8, 1974, president of the United States Gerald Ford issued Proclamation 4311, which gave Richard Nixon a full and unconditional pardon for any crimes he might have committed against the United States while president.[1][2][3] In a televised broadcast to the nation, Ford explained that he felt the pardon was in the best interests of the country, and that the Nixon family's situation was "a tragedy in which we all have played a part. It could go on and on and on, or someone must write the end to it. I have concluded that only I can do that, and if I can, I must."[4]

The Nixon pardon was highly controversial. Critics derided the move, and claimed a "corrupt bargain" had been struck between the men: that Ford's pardon was granted in exchange for Nixon's resignation, elevating Ford to the presidency."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon_of_Richard_Nixon

'a full and unconditional pardon for any crimes he might have committed against the United States while president'

So it looks like a Presidential pardon overrides anything that may come up in the future. It is "unconditional", so any receipient is totally off the hook.

That is probably why Trump is saying

"Trump demands Obama promise not to pardon Clinton"

But Clinton has been investigated by the FBI already and has no case to answer. So nothing to pardon.

Trump has suggested he will reopen it. He is not happy.

This was Trump's tweet just 4 days ago

Donald J. Trump Verified account 
‏@realDonaldTrump

They let Crooked & the Gang off the hook for the crime, but it looks like the cover-up is just as bad. Unbelievable!

Mistigirl - Nope. All knowledge is malleable. There is no universally accepted fact and never has been (hence the clash in cultures, which is really all about clash between knowledges). Those with influence, wealth and power get to define truth, even scientific truth

Tell you what - try jumping out of a fourth floor window while repeating to yourself that there is no such thing as scientific truth and that gravity is just a theory. Once you've done that, there might be a productive discussion to be had on this topic.

"Mistigirl - Nope. All knowledge is malleable. There is no universally accepted fact and never has been (hence the clash in cultures, which is really all about clash between knowledges). Those with influence, wealth and power get to define truth, even scientific truth"

That really makes no sense at all . Opinion is malleable..........

Misti!

Two birds with one stone there!

can someone explain how laughing at a rape victim and supporting your husband in denying affairs that happened is even in the same ball park of immorality as actually sexually assaulting people?

Clinton certainly is no saint....but nobody actually seriously thinks she has committed sexual assault do they?

I am constantly mystified why she doesn't just come out and say 'I have never assaulted anyone and I have never bragged about using my celebrity status to get away with it' or 'why are you talking about my husband? Should we be talking about your wives?'

There are different forms of knowledge to describe the world. Religion is one. Science is another. There are others. We describe the same phenomena in radically different ways (cf Copernicus). Science does not tell us about truth (neither does religion) - no form of knowledge does (evidence for this assertion = radically different ways of describing the world). We used to think that Pluto was a planet and now we don't, or some scientists think that global warming is happening while others don't. Science is valued not because of its ability to tell the truth but because of what emanates from it - quality of life, medical care, technology, guns, planes, cancer drugs, ethics such as equality for women. All scientists realise that our current knowledge about the world can be overturned in the future, as it has been in the past. Because no type of knowledge, inc science, is linked to 'truth', it leaves the door open for manipulation by current cultural trends, funding issues, etc..If science told us the absolute truth about something, it would be incontrovertible. It isn't. It's a better way to understand the world (if technology, medicine and whatever are your thing) but it's not 'truth', but, if everyone adheres to it, we'll all be better off (if you like technology, dishwashers, etc.. Some don't - and then there's a clash).

Ah. You are under the apprehension that scientists believe that scientific facts aren't subject to change at a later date if more evidence emerges. They don't.

Incidentally, no reputable scientist believes that climate change is not real.

I'd agree with you if you said no reputable climate change scientist thinks that

She hasn't been charged or convicted of anything so a pardon is a bit moot.

Not so. The president can issue a preemptive pardon; it has happened several times in the past, most notably when Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon. I don't think it will happen unless the Republican nominee is elected. If that disaster happens, I think it possible that President Obama would consider it to prevent them from making her life a misery for years.