Excited about the Labour leadership announcement

[Badgoushk]

For full disclosure I'm a Jeremy Corbyn supporter. I'm quite excited and hopeful that he's won again. Anyone else feeling it?!

'But Blair never was defeated, was he? That's my point'

No but I mean his fall in reputation. He would like to make speeches and go on TV and give his opinion and have it respected as he was Prime Minister for years, but he can't do that in the UK as hardly anyone takes him seriously apart from Cameron.

'n what real sense is he 'a casualty of the anti-establishment shift in public mood'

His fall in respect. Even the Establishment has to a large extent lost respect for him with his self-aggrandisement and money making etc.

'Apart from not being widely liked - but I rather doubt he's much concerned about that.'

At the end of the day, Blair is human and everyone likes to be liked. Blair has a very thin skin as you can see in the stress in his face. What has happened has taken a toll on him. He really has no role left as being influential with the public and that was half his life as a spinner.

when Corbyn offers an end to the bedroom tax from the start, an end to cuts in benefits, guaranteed council house tenancy, investment in poorer comunities, support for the steel industry, nationalisation of rail, scrapping of tuition fees etc etc. Unlike with Chuka and the 172, working class voters believe that Corbyn means it

The point is that the working class don't believe it or even want it, saying that they do has been labours downfall over the past 2 elections, plus, most of these points need to be costed in real terms other than 'tax the rich more' or 'increase the minimum wage', especially the latter with his pro immigration stance and the fact that globalisation cannot be unwound, the electorate are not as dumb as people make out, the media is just as much of a mirror to public sentiment rather than a dictation to said public.

'The point is that the working class don't believe it or even want it, saying that they do has been labours downfall over the past 2 elections, plus'

Excellent point, I forgot about that. The strivers and scroungers Tory argument did work with the working class, you are right.

'with his pro immigration stance and the fact that globalisation cannot be unwound'

You are right. It won't be easy and somehow he will have to square the circle, but I don't believe that the working class have any faith in Lisa Nandy and Chuka Umunna ad that they are better than Corbyn on those issues. At the end of the day, the Left says it supports the workers and will sort the bosses out and Corbyn is eft and Momentum are Left whereas the 172 are ... well.

Well, ok. I'm not sure Tony Blair is such a sensitive soul as all that but it's certainly one way of looking at things.

'I'm not sure Tony Blair is such a sensitive soul as all that'

He was called Bambi. He is as soft as a marshmallow, you can read it in his face. He ain't no Trump, he can't handle that level of pressure.

Utterly depressed. JC is unelectable. I no longer know who to vote for. There is no opposition.

And I am appalled by how 'conservative' (with a small 'c') and reactionary the Labour party is. I had so wanted a woman to be leader and was really disappointed that we didn't even get a choice of something different. SNP and Tories now both have women leaders. Can't ever see it happening in the Labour party

"Gather around children – Tony Blair has figured out why nobody likes him.

Well, sort of. According to Tony, people aren’t really that bothered about us following the US into the early 00’s ill-fated invasion of Iraq after all.

Instead, apparently people don’t like Tony Blair because… (drum roll please)

Tony Blair is so successful."

metro.co.uk/2016/05/28/forget-iraq-this-is-the-real-reason-everyone-hates-tony-blair-according-to-tony-blair-5910360/

It is a tragedy really. You have to feel sorry for him. He can't accept the truth because he is not strong enough to take it, it would break him, so he convinces himself it is everyone else's problem and that lie creates the stress.

I think tony blair is a twat.

I think JC is unelectable and that support from the "momentum" people et al is pointless if the actual electorate won't vote Labour, which they won't.

Being anti Corbyn doesn't mean being a "Tory-lite"

The strivers and scroungers Tory argument did work with the working class, you are right.

Again, presuming that it's just Tory/elitist propaganda that has invoked this mindset is not only pretty derogatory to the working class, but kind of negates the whole anti establishment mindset which you apparently advocate. UKIP shifted the Overton window right in an anti establishment manner, I'm not sure where your joined up thinking is here.

Maybe Claig you can explain to me why Corbyn supporters claim that Blair under his leadership lost Labour 5 million votes this was according to McDonnell on Question Time the following week it's was down to 4 million votes by a member of the audience who is a Cornyn supporter. Not sure what happened to 1 million labour supporters in that week

Blair's Labour had the largest swing to a political party ever and won three consecutive elections and won by a huge majority

Blair won by taking the middle ground not losing 5 or 4 million labour voters

'I think tony blair is a twat.'

You won't find much disagreement there, apart from from Cameron and Osborne who allegedly referrred to him as "the master", but they were wrong on lots of things including Brexit.

This is from one of Blair's former friends. It sounds totally wacky and unbelievable but who knows.

"Tony Blair thought he was the MESSIAH and often wore MAKE-UP, ex-PM's former friend claims

TONY Blair believed he was a god-like figure who has arguably lost his mind, a former close friend of the ex-Prime Minister has said."

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/687466/Tony-Blair-Chilcot-Report-Iraq-War-Prime-minister-British-politics-Messiah-God-make-up

No wonder Momentum like Corbyn. they think he is grounded with an allotment and is as boring and normal as it gets.

Corbyn doesn't even know who Ant and Dec are. How much better does it get? Cool Britannia? Corbyn is as cool as it gets.

Corbyn is completely unelectable so I refuse to vote for him and I'll deliberately sit back to let the Tories win.

'The strivers and scroungers Tory argument did work with the working class, you are right.

Again, presuming that it's just Tory/elitist propaganda that has invoked this mindset is not only pretty derogatory to the working class, but kind of negates the whole anti establishment mindset which you apparently advocate.'

No I am not being derogatory to the working class because I don't make value judgements, I am a realist, I believe what will be will be and it is for a reason. So the centre has collapsed for a reason, the people don't want it. Unlike Corbyn and McDonnell, I don't call lots of working class UKIP voters racists for being opposed to the levels of immigration etc. I don't make value judgements on it, I just see what is.

On the contrary, I think that the Tories understood the working class better than Labour did and that is why they echoed to them what they were really already thinking as a majority which is why their message was effective. In the same way, thatcher understood the motivations of the working class better thn Kinnock did and that is why Thatcher won three elections.

Corbyn doesn't even know who Ant and Dec are. How much better does it get? Cool Britannia? Corbyn is as cool as it gets.

Being hipster Anti populism, is just as embarrassing as trying to act 'with it', neither is 'cool', and both shouldn't be used as a scoring point

'Maybe Claig you can explain to me why Corbyn supporters claim that Blair under his leadership lost Labour 5 million votes this was according to McDonnell on Question Time the following week it's was down to 4 million votes by a member of the audience who is a Cornyn supporter. '

I don't know about Momentum etc. I don't know any of them. But Blair lost millions of voters who had voted Labour. But it was obvious that he would lose them because they were former Tories like me. I voted for Blair in 1997, but never again. He lost me and he lost millions of other Tories and potential Tories and in the end enough of them voted for the "heir to Blair", Cameron and then they abandoned him just like I did and went to UKIP instead because they had had enough of Cameron and his team.

'Blair's Labour had the largest swing to a political party ever and won three consecutive elections and won by a huge majority '

Yes, I was part of the landslide who voted for him in 1997 so I understand well why I did and why many like me did too.

After that he had teh backing of Murdoch and the Establishment. he followed the war line and was therefore supported by the powers that be who wanted war. So he hung on with favourable media coverage etc, but it could never last because the Tory voters would have to leave him eventually and his statist Big Government biometic ID card policy and DNA databases that his masters wanted him to enact led to his final downfall as freedom loving conservatives had had enough and voted for the "heir to Blair" instead.

Or rather Blair had become so unpopular that Brown took over, but was on borrowed time after Murdoch ditched him, and then camethe Heir to Blair, Cameron.

Blair could not have won a landslide or three consecutive elections if he lost millions of of labour voters

The far left parties hardly pull any votes certianly none of the parties are significant in politics

Again words that don't match numbers

Blair won an election after the war

And Brown didn't lose to Cameron he lost to a coalition government

'Blair could not have won a landslide or three consecutive elections if he lost millions of of labour voters'

He lost millions of Tory voters who had once voted Labour. He held onto most of the loyal Labour voters, but also lost some of them to the LibDems.

'Blair won an election after the war'

Yes because the media backed Blair as did the Establishment because war was what the powers that be wanted and expected as Blair had to do what Bush had decided.

'And Brown didn't lose to Cameron he lost to a coalition government'

Only because Cameron was not a real conservative and therefore couldn't consolidate the true conservative vote. 20% of teh conservative vote subsequently went to UKIP and that was teh beginning of the end for Cameron and the start of Brexit. Now we have Theresa May who looks like a real conservative so she may be able to consolidate the true conservative vote. We will have to wait and see. But now the conservatives also have a potential real challenge from a real left and despite what the media and the 172 say, that won't be so easy for the conservatives because there will now be a real choice for the public, not just more Tory-lite and Red Tory with "two kitchens".

Yes, things might be have been different if Nick Clegg had gone the other way, so to speak.

'Yes, things might be have been different if Nick Clegg had gone the other way, so to speak.'

I don't think he really had any choice. The Establishment have to maintain legitimacy and it was clear that the public had rejected Labour so there was no way of stitching things up and maintaining public confidence if they allowed Labour to continue. It is the same over Brexit. the Establishment was against it but they have no way out because they have to maintain legitimacy and respect the public will.

But the Tory voters who voted for Blair were not Labour voters that would vote for Corbyn

So it's bollocks what McDonnell has said no surprise there

I agree. I think McDonnell is being sharp and fast with the statistics because Labour lost former Tories. And most of those will not vote for Corbyn either because Blair was more centrist than Corbyn is unless and this is the huge factor that is now in play, unless Corbyn really does manage to understand teh worries and fears of all the public, including conservatives over their living standards, future prospects, job security, care for the elderly etc etc. If he does that then just like in 1997, Tories could well say enough is enough and vote for Corbyn. Of course it also depends on what Theresa May does and she is off to a flying start by scrapping the Cameron Etonian crap, tearing up his do-gooder stuff and going for real conservative policies like grammar schools, meritocracy etc. She is saying she wants to help the squeezed middle and that is bad news for Corbyn because they will both have to vie for that vote.

But what is worrying about Corbyn and McDonnell is that they did invite a good team of economists to help them out but nothing seems to have come out of it and some of these economists subsequently supported the 172's candidate, Owen Banter.

So are Corbyn and McDonnell all spin? Are they too weak and too scared to implement real economic change and challenge the 172 and the Estalishment economic consensus? Will Hillary Benn be back in the driving seat because Corbyn is too weak to put him back in his box and if he is then it is all over for Labour.