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Politics

Could somebody explain why Corbyn shouldn't be voted for as Labour party leader?

710 replies

Myturnnow4 · 12/08/2015 15:53

I've listened to people argue this, but haven't heard a reasoned argument yet. The main criticism appears to be, "he's on the left" but don't go on to explain why that in itself is a bad thing.

OP posts:
ironmaiden999 · 23/08/2015 21:09

Claig, I agree with you that Corbyn can be a threat to UKIP; but Corbyn wants 'open borders' and not immigration control, the one thing that does unite the 4 million who voted for UKIP at the last election was the need to control immigration, if Corbyn wants more mass immigration and no border controls surely he is the antipathy of what UKIP voters want?
As Claig suggests 'Dave' is not popular, he's introduced new planning laws, which have carved up the countryside and he's not popular because of this; in his own constituency he rarely meets the constituents, in case they give him a 'mouthful' he's been abused on the streets of Witney (his constituency). In many villages UKIP came second to the Tories in the last election. Young people want to vote for Corbyn because they don't remember what the past labour government's have been like! IMO whoever gets in nothing changes, sorry it does, but only for the worse!

claig · 23/08/2015 21:36

'but Corbyn wants 'open borders' and not immigration control, the one thing that does unite the 4 million who voted for UKIP at the last election was the need to control immigration, if Corbyn wants more mass immigration and no border controls surely he is the antipathy of what UKIP voters want? '

Yes, but you have to look at the immigration issue and ask why so much discontent now and not in 2006 when Blair and the band let in hundreds of thousands of EU citizens seeking work. What has happened is that the people - and specifically UKIP voters, 4 million - have had enough of how we are governed in many different ways. They are sick of this ruling class of out of touch metropolitan elite luvvies who are politically correct idiots and who are wasting public money on foreign aid and their own favourite charidees and are not solving housing, employment or anthying serious. So they have hit back at the metropolitan spinners in the most politically incorrect way they know how - complaining about immigration, which everyone knows is not allowed by the Establishment and the media. So the people have broken that barrier and the metropolitan elite had to listen. But of course they can't do anything, they can't change anything on housing, employment or immigration, but there will be more charidees and higher salaries for the metropolitan luvvies who work in the "third sector", funded to a large extent by the taxpayer.

The majority of the people think there iis too much immigration, but they thought that in 2005 and 2006 etc. What has changed is that now they are fed up of our governing class and that is why UKIP toppled the LibDems and became our 3rd largest party even though a lot of the UKIP spokespeople are not the sharpest tools in the box. People don't care, they have had enough - not just over immigration, but of our entire useless elite.

Now along comes Corbyn and if the Establishment is unable to stop him, then he will nationalise industries, lower prices, bring down housing costs, build more homes, provide more employment, scrap zero-hour contracts, bring in free childcare and improve the NHS. Millions of ordinary people will benefit and be very grateful. Immigration will slip down the list of their priorities. They will go back to 2005 and 2006.

Corbyn won't bring in open borders, because there will be some commonsense union types - the Len McCluskeys - who will advise against it.

UKIP voters say immigration is their main concern on the doorstep, but it isn't really, it is the lack of prospects, lack of a good future and disillusion at the class who are ruining our country. When those problems are fixed, immigration will recede as their main concern.

' IMO whoever gets in nothing changes, sorry it does, but only for the worse!'

This is where Corbyn is different. If he gets in, there will be huge changes. That is why all the PPEs, Blair, the great and the good are desperately trying to stop Corbyn. Corbyn is not a PPE, he is for real and he will change things and make thngs better for ordinary people.

If Corbyn loses the Labour leadership, then Labour really are finished and UKIP will grow. The Tories themselves are on borrowed time. The only thing that saved them is our unfair unrepresentative electoral system. PR voting will have to come in eventually because the people are not being properly represented. When it comes in, the Tories are finished and the battle will be betwenn UKIP and Corbyn.

Corbyn will win it because he does have a wider vision which has the courage to nationalise industry, tax the rich, tax the coorporations, hopefully tax the charidees and the luvvies in them, and provide employment and cheaper homes. Farage will go half way there, but he can't match Corbyn because he is a former Tory and has ex-Tory financial backers who won't let him compete with Corbyn and the unions.

I prefer Farage's commonsense, but Corbyn will solve more of the country's problems.

ironmaiden999 · 23/08/2015 22:00

Claig, interesting times ahead...particularly for the labour party! Goodnight!
Smile

claig · 23/08/2015 22:04

John Harris is a good left wing journalist, one of the few who tries to understand UKIP and the people instead of having a metropolitan kneejerk reaction that ignores what people are saying and thinking.

In this report on UKIP and immigration, you can see that the real underlying issue on immigration is mainly to do with jobs, prospects, wages and a future. Immigrants compete for work. There is a Polish guy who says "let the market sort it out", "the fittest will survive". That is the Tory and Labour Tory-lite philosophy but it is now definitely coming to a crashing end. The people have had enough.

First they voted UKIP in rebellion, next it will be Corbyn. Corbyn is the antithesis of "let the market decide". He will let the state and the people decide and that is what people - including UKIP voters will now want. Then when there are jobs and higher wages and good prospects, the people will no longer feel under competition for jobs from immigrants and there will no longer be any "let the fittest survive" and there will be less worry over immigration.

The fundamental thing is jobs, wages and a future without high education fees and being ripped off by this metropolitan elite class of rich luvvies who solve nothing serious, spout politically correct meaningless mantras and are "mesmerised" by charidees and waste taxpayer money on their own follies.

claig · 23/08/2015 22:06

Interesting tmes for Labour, the people and the whole country. Things are going to get better for the people and worse for the metropolitan elite. Goodnight. [smie]

claig · 24/08/2015 09:42

Even Alan Johnson, the man the media built up as the "normal" reasonable person in Labour, has realised that the game is up. The Establishment had hoped that either Alan Johnson or David Miliband could save them from Corbyn, but Johnson can't do it and obviously Miliband couldn't either. Johnson knows (even if they don't) that it is all over, that he would be easily defeated by the popular surge for Corbyn.

This is what Aan Johnson says about the people's insurgency.

"Discussing why Corbyn had attracted such support, he went on: “There is something in the air, whether its about insurgency or a feeling that something needs to change or whether the fact that you have rebelled 500 times is something to commend you …”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11819663/Moderate-Labour-MPs-fear-Jeremy-Corbyn-purge.html

Alyosha · 24/08/2015 10:28

Claig, IIRC you were predicting 10+ seats for UKIP and a win for Nigel Farage...

But anyway - Labour has been here before. In some ways I would like Corbyn to win, and for the Labour party to see that he is not electorally popular. That would then pave the way for an electable candidate in 2025. In the meantime we run the risk of giving the Tories a huge majority to wreck our country as they please (selling off Housing Association homes, stealth cuts to the NHS even greater than they already are, privatising the Tube or something stupid like that).

Re: immigration - I think there was a lot of discontent in 2006, actually. I think the fear over wages, infrastructure is a valid one. It's not so much about taking people's jobs, rather that the influx of labour prepared to work for less probably depresses wage rises. And it fuels the underground labour economy. Our black labour economy would only be further strengthened by an open border policy. A high minimum wage means nothing if it is not enforced.

Of course, this is all slightly academic, as those most opposed to immigration are those living in the areas with the smallest amount of it.

I think Corbyn's immigration policy would immediately lose us even more votes to UKIP in the North.

claig · 24/08/2015 10:40

'No electoral fraud' in Nigel Farage-contested Thanet South seat
...
'Postal vote problems'

The election result was not declared at the count at Margate's Winter Gardens until about 10.35 GMT on Friday, hours later than expected.

BBC reporters were told by officials at the time the delays were caused by the sheer volume of ballot papers and problems verifying the postal vote.

Turnout was 69%, up from 65% in 2010."

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32725167

Corbyn's immigration policy is typical left wing folly, but it won't matter because Corbyn will make life better for ordinary working people.

When Corbyn stands up at Labour Conference, he will not be making a PPE written speech about meeting Gareth in the park and "forgetting" to mention the deficit, Corbyn will speak about meeting the taxman in his office and "remembering" to sort out corporate tax evasion. There will be a standing ovation and deafening applause from every ordinary Labour Party member in Conference, and in the front row, there will be the Oxbridge contingent, the PPEs, the Blairites, glued fast to their seats, glum-faced and despondent knowing that they will be receiving an almighty bollocking from the Establishment for not being able to stop Corbyn and the people.

Alyosha · 24/08/2015 12:22

Everyone's been talking about tax evasion, Claig. It's not exactly something new!

And no, immigration is a key concern and voters voting for him depend on them believing in his policies...which we know they don't because they just voted for full-fat austerity.

claig · 24/08/2015 12:40

'Everyone's been talking about tax evasion, Claig.'

But there is aiffrence between talk and action. No one elieves a word the spinners say, but lots of people believe that Corbyn is for real.

Isitmebut · 24/08/2015 12:46

Only a Farage supporter can blindly assume a political leader actually has the means to deliver what they say - and if Corbyn states he will bring in more taxes than the present government - unless he specifies how, every business from small to large will assume their taxes will keep going up under a Corbyn government as back in the 1970's, to meet his SPENDING plans.

Isitmebut · 24/08/2015 12:50

What is Corbyn going to do on top of this?

May 2014: “HMRC crackdown yields record £23.9bn in additional tax”
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27576626

”The government has raised a record £23.9bn in additional tax for the year to the end of March as a result of a crackdown on tax avoidance.”

”HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) said it had secured the money - the highest amount since records began - as a result of its investigations.”

”The figure is almost £1bn higher than the target set by Chancellor George Osborne in the Autumn Statement.”

”The extra money raised is in addition to regular tax receipts.”

”HMRC credited "increased activity" on unpaid tax for the figure.”

"HMRC will pursue those seeking to avoid their responsibilities and will collect the taxes that are due," said Treasury minister David Gauke.”

"The government is determined to tackle the minority that seek to avoid paying the taxes they owe," he added.”

“Noose tightens around global tax evasion as OECD countries sign new agreement”
www.cityam.com/1414597567/noose-tightens-around-global-tax-evasion-oecd-countries-sign-new-agreement

"The OECD just took a step closer to fighting tax evasion on a global scale, with 51 territories agreeing to create “information exchanges” that will help track culprits down."

"The first signatories to the dull-sounding "multilateral competent authority agreement" – which include the UK and Ireland – will launch their information exchanges by September 2017. Others will follow in 2018."

Feb 2015: ”Britain's highest earners pay a quarter of nation's income tax”

“New figures published by HMRC show that the proportion of the nation's tax bill paid by the richest has risen under the Coalition”

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/tax/11411790/Britains-highest-earners-pay-a-quarter-of-nations-income-tax.html

JanetBlyton · 24/08/2015 13:28

Cl, I am very much in favour of Corbyn winning as leader of Labour, as are many on the right as we know it means Labour will not rule for a generation. Corbyn is very good news in that resepct.

I don't agree the great and good are quaking in boots over him. Instead they are signing up their alpacas to vote for him. However I am sure the posh end of the Labour party are indeed quaking in boots.

squidzin · 24/08/2015 13:41

Yawn... Corbyn "unelectable" great... Tory rule for 100's of years.... Superb victory for Tories...

Whatever.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 24/08/2015 14:01

Isit Are you David Cameron? Wink

claig · 24/08/2015 14:33

JanetBlyton, you may be right, but there is no room for more alpacas in Labour's top echelons. They already have Burnham, Cooper and Kendall.

LumpySpacedPrincess · 24/08/2015 14:47

It is breathtakingly arrogant to say that Corbyn is unelectable. After 5 more years under a full tory mandate people will be chomping at the bit to get them out, particularly the young whose lives they seem so keen to ruin. I hope anyone who signed up to vote for Corbyn as they thought it would secure successive tory governments will learn to deeply regret their decision.

Alyosha · 24/08/2015 15:15

Lumpy - I think you're arrogant to assume that people will want the Cons out in 5 years.

They wanted full fat austerity rather than semi-skimmed this election, why would the electorate suddenly become more left wing in the interim?

When has Labour ever won an election by tacking to the left?

In some ways I hope Corbyn wins, we see how popular he really is, and you guys can realise he is not going to win us the next election...

squidzin · 24/08/2015 15:19

Isit is David Cameron's Pet Poodle Wink

ooh Aloysha's back!

Viviennemary · 24/08/2015 15:20

I don't understand why they just can't cancel the election and say only people who have been proper members of the party for a year or more can vote. Seems Labour aren't really capable of applying common sense and only wring their hands in despair while the whole party is whizzing along towards the cliff edge of oblivion. Why on earth don't they do something. Of course Corbyn might be really popular and become the next PM. Hmm

Alyosha · 24/08/2015 15:23

Vivienne - I agree, letting people register as supporters for £3 was mad. However I also think that many JC supporters won't end up voting. We saw in the general election that the loudest voices in social media don't necessarily predict an election.

But I expect I'm wrong :p

Alyosha · 24/08/2015 15:24

Squidz - I'm honoured :D

I was on holiday in claig's favourite country :D

WetAugust · 24/08/2015 15:26

Many of Corbyn's plans will probably be thwarted by EU competition regulations. It was a EU directive that caused the break up of Royal Mail / Post Office counters

JanetBlyton · 24/08/2015 15:28

All I can say is as ever those women senisbkle enough to become lawyers like I did are the ones who will gain because if I were a losing Labour candidate I would want to litigate this. If a Times journalist/MP? can register his alpacas (although by the way he has promised they will not vote - they have trouble holding pens apparently) to vote then God knows who else is on that list.

WetAugust · 24/08/2015 15:41

I can't see either side accepting defeat gracefully. I feel a split is now inevitable. The right-leaning wing can establish a New Social Democratic Party leaving the Corbynites with the rump of Labour.

It's probably for the best as the Corbynites have very clear views on what they stand for whereas the right-wing leaning are just saying "We are career politicians, now tell us what our policies should be".

It would be wonderful if the Tories could also split as Cameron is not a traditional Tory and the right wing of that party are disenfranchised