Another Angry Voice: UKIP are not an "Alternative"

[ttosca]

Hardly a day goes by without some delusional person completely ignoring the subject of the item I've shared to enthuse that UKIP are an "alternative" to the corrupt political establishment.

In this article I'm going to explode the myth that UKIP are an "alternative" and conclude by providing a list of genuinely alternative political parties and organisations.

anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/ukip-alternative-delusion-neoliberal.html

I have voted Green in the past when I've not liked any of the main parties.But that's a bit of a waste of time. So I probably will vote UKIP. Even more determined now since that Maria Miller expense business. I did vote Labour last time but am absolutely not going to this time.

I went to a UKIP Local meeting last night. Their prospective MEP who spoke at the meting is an immigrant from Pakistan, who speaks for the party on small business matters.

Looking at the demographics at the meeting Labour has far more to fear from UKIP than the Tories. That surprised me. So did the fact that another of the guest speakers was 24 years old.

That belies quite a few of UKIP perceptions on here.

Yeah, sure, UKIP is totally respectable.

Yeah, sure, UKIP is totally respectable

Yep, you're learning

( My response to AAV Blog )Dear Angry Voice, I wasn't going to bother responding to this pseudo intellectual drivel, but I thought rather than crushing your argument completely and wasting my time, I'd let UKIP's 2015 MANIFESTO released in september do it for me. But I will mention a few things: If UKIP where so THATCHERITE, then why do they offer Direct Democracy, MP Callbacks, Abolishment of Inheritance tax and income tax on minimum wage, bringing energy prices down by 50% by scrapping inefficient and expensive wind turbines and using shale gas and other meathods as the US does, improving the NHS by cutting excess middle management and excessive foreign aid and increasing quality and quantity of active medical staff and their training, additional devolution of local powers to Scotland, Ireland and Wales, and the committee system in local councils. Also the flooding, dredging rivers is prevented by EU policy. These are just a few of the resons that make UKIP completely different from the political elite, and Thatcher. Your articule is biased, ill informed and repetitive, and is based on a mix of media bias, propaganda and out-dated irrelevant misinformation and misrepresentation of UKIP. They have ex Tory and Ex Labor Donors, they have members from various backgrounds in the real world, not career politicians who are entirely disconnected with the public. They have ex members of various parties, and they have mixed race, gender, age, background, sexuality and faith, and they are very open about that. Your supposed comments made by certain members are misrepresented and twisted versions of the truth (if not lies) and do not represent the party. What of the expenses scandal, the pedophile ring, among other things, the political elite share in these. And WHAT ABOUT the EU, and the majority of our laws they make and enforce on us, controlling every aspect of our lives? Every major party INCLUDING the Greens (not so major) love the EU and are pro EU! The promised referendum is empty and worthless after another 3 years of our Nations rights and powers being QMV'd away! A referendum has been promised and NOT delivered by the Tories several times, Labor offer none, the libdems are against it, and the Greens would campaign a stay in vote even if they could offer one! TheEU is weakening the UK, railroading it toward the Euro, and our people are starting down the path of austerity and suffering and death that has torn apart countries like Greece because of the EU and the Euro. No amount of supposed negotiating will change this, our powers are handed over in secret, immigration is none negotiable, and open door, uncontrolled is dragging down wages, increasing unemployment, hostility, cultural devide, crime rates, saturating the population, forcing over development of housing, and straining public services such as the NHS to breaking point. European Human Rights in the Grand Court of Strasbourg has supreme control over our legal system. The Job loss of leaving the EU is a myth, they rely on us for over 5 million jobs, they won't be threatening ours, they rely heavily on us for trade, far more than the opposite, the city of London deals with far more currency conversion than EU banks comparatively, and we have the freedom to join the EU trade union under negotiated terms while not being a member of the EU! We would have world trade deals without EU levy, attend the WTO, and globalize successfully, without losing major EU trade benefits! The TTIP and Financial Transaction Tax are EU Directives that will be forced on us eventually as a member state unless we LEAVE the EU! Negotiating powers back etc is a joke, and liblabcon AND green are PRO EU even Knowing all this! They are traitors, and harbor extreme elements within them, such as allowing our Country to be taken over almost completely by Brussels and Strasbourg WITHOUT PUBIC CONSENT! HOWS THAT FOR EXREME? UKIP ARE THE ONLY PARTY Fighting these things, and offering the positive policies mentioned, and they are NOT an alternative, they are the ONLY other real choice other than EU Dictatorship! And if the things I've mentioned that UKIP stand for are Fascist, racist or extreme, then I Guess I am Too, along with All the millions of their supporters, and anyone else with common sense. By the way, how much are the Greens/Labour/Tories/LibDems/EU paying you?Or are you just a Deluded pseudo intellectual Ignoramus? If you care at all about TheUK and it's people, wake up, do real research, learn the truthfor yourself, watch Mr Farage win the Leader Debates for the GE 2015 when they happen, and read the UKIP manifesto in September this year. Then when you know I'm right, Vote UKIP, because they WILL be the Stars of 2015 GE.

Dear me, I thought I wrote reams of 'gloop in one shot', at least I use a paragraph to break it up a bit. lol

And 'speed scanning', I still don't see how Ukip without a UK parliamentary majority, can bring the UK out of the EU, so please explain poster.

P.S. the Conservatives offered an 'in or out' EU Referendum PRIOR to Mr Brown sneaking off and signing the Lisbon Treaty via the back door, that meant the EU was then ALREADY written into UK law.

When the Tories got into power as a minority government in 2010, we were already well IN the EU, and their partners the Lib Dems are arguably more pro EU than Labour, were hardly going to help the Conservatives legislate to possibly leave the EU during this parliament.

Voting Conservative in 2015 and cameron getting a parliamentary majority REMAINS the only option for the UK electorate to both HEAR BOTH SIDED OF THE IN/OUT DEBATE, and have their in/out say in 2017 - unless Ukip organize a coup before then.

'Or are you just a Deluded pseudo intellectual Ignoramus?'

This was a question addressed to the OP, ttosca

I think some of that is inaccurate and unfair. I have seen no evidence of "intellectual".

Lol.

ttosca may I invite you to a branch meeting of UKIP so that you can judge for yourself, rather than wasting your time with diatribes which say far more about you than your intended target. I'm assuming your piece wasn't intended as comedy, though it does read like a UKIPper trying to parody the loons who stalk the lower half of the internet.

Spinflight .... have you been laughing since April Cochise, as that is when ttosca last posted on this thread. lol

IMO the question regarding Ukip is not one of respectability (you’ve had another 4-months to clean your act up), it is of INTEGRITY.

Ukip , as it says on the can, is all about UK ‘independence’ from the EU - and for the past 20-years Ukip and their UK domestic policies (including in 2010) have been as joined up/useful to the UK citizens, as the proverbial chocolate tea pot.

So here we are, the EU has been proven to be an ideological and economic failure, the key major players state that further member integration is an answer to the EU structural failures, therefore the 2015 General Election will not just be key to our economic and financial recovery, but also about whether through political osmosis - the UK gets further assimilated into an EU Federal State.

Yet the only choice the UK electorate has to have their say via a UK referendum, can ONLY happen via a 2015 Conservative parliamentary majority (as another Lib Dem coalition will block it again).

But due to the dodgy UK electoral boundaries, if the Conservatives retain their current 35% of the total votes they will again be around 20-seats SHORT of a majority, yet a 34% of the vote for Labour will give them a 66 seat MAJORITY, around 31% would still mean a very small majority - where a Lib Dem coalition or vote with Labour on this subject, guarantees that the UK stays in the EU.

How can any political party, never mind Ukip, stand by when Labour will decide the UK’s future in Europe (and every UK domestic policy) with a smaller percentage of the national vote than the Conservatives and UkIP combined – thereby lacking any UK democratic legitimacy?

WHEN will a Farage led United Kingdom Independence Party decide that their 20-year mission statement is more important to THEM, than the ego boosting 2015 votes (maybe 11-15% of the electorate), with maybe several Westminster seats to show for it - but by gifting the general election to an incompetent Labour/Miliband, it ensures a perpetual Labour administration, aided by the Lib Dems, to keep the UK IN THE EU????

Yawn

The tories are scum and europhiles to the last man. They claim to be eurosceptic until they vote. At which point they become rubber stamps.

I doubt anyone is going to fall for their usual tethered goats. Hell even Redwood now, after 20 years or more, has decided he doesn't want to leave the EU.

Sinflight ….. So after your ignorant rant that’s confirmed; we can’t rely on Farage’s mono-EU-policy-they-can’t-deliver-disciples to push for INTEGRITY within the party.

The EEC/EU I’ve shown above for the ‘free market’ Conservatives it was all about the Common Market and not a European Federal State and however many were still ‘positive’ on the EU project coming into the new millennium - the political and economic ‘events’ and their consequences through the 2000’s – has if not changed their mind, it has given them a severe doubt the project can ever work UNLESS the EU is severely reformed.

The proof is that the private sector/jobs promoting Conservatives tries to ensure that the size/cost of government is as big as it NEEDS to be, the resulting lower taxes means more of what they earn stays in businesses and peoples pockets providing more investment and choices how their money is spent = SUSTAINABLE economic growth.

Why would the Conservative Party for decades follow (and when in government put into practice to this very day) the ABOVE principals, yet want to remain in an EU following the Labour Party’s country model (on steroids) of fat expensive inefficient government, a put upon by taxes/regulation/redtape businesses and consumers = UNSUSTAINABLE economic growth and a slow downwards spiral of low prosperity for it’s citizens????

Re “Redwood”, Cameron, or anyone else in the Conservative Party, why would their PERSONAL OPINIONS matter IN A PEOPLES REFERENDUM ON STAYING IN THE EU, or not??????????????????????

If as expected a 2017 UK Referendum on the EU is in the Conservative 2015 General Election Manifesto, then a Conservative majority government in 2015 is COMMITTED to a process that will ensure FACTUAL debates before hand to help ‘the people’ vote/dccide.

I understand why a Farage disciple would DOUBT A MANIFESTO PLEDGE as In 2010 Ukip launched their General Election manifesto, but before long Mr Farage who signed it off, then totally disowned it.

“UKIP leader Nigel Farage has disowned the party's entire 2010 general election manifesto - which he helped launch - branding it "drivel”.
news.sky.com/story/1200525/nigel-farage-disowns-ukip-manifesto-as-drivel

A WAKE UP FACT; with no power to bring the UK out of the EU themselves, UKIP is standing in the way of their own 20-year objective to give the Uk ‘Independence’ from the fuckwittery of the EU Federal State project – so what now IS THE POINT of a Ukip.

The powers you talk about are granted by the electorate, they are not the divine right of arrogant tories who think they were born to rule.

It's easy: DON'T VOTE UKIP. DO NOT VOTE UKIP. DON'T VOTE UKIP. DO NOT VOTE UKIP. DON'T VOTE UKIP. DO NOT VOTE UKIP.

Spinflight .... in the General Election in 2015, UKIP will once again lie to the electorate that they can bring the UK out of the EU when it is impossible for the to change UK law that has the EU written into it after the Lisbon Treaty Brown signed.

The Conservative pulled the UK out of hole in 1979, and handed over in 1997 a highly competitive economy, which then was the fastest growing economy in Europe.

In 2010 they received back a broken economy with the largest annual budget deficit in Europe, they will hand back to Labour (thanks to Ukip) in 2015 a rebalanced economy with a greatly reduced annual budget deficit, currently the strongest growing in the major G7 economies.

That is not a record of arrogance, it is a record of success in a two main party system where the alternate runs out of money and raises EVERYONES taxes.

Ukip on the other hand, lies about their main promise to the electorate and in 20-years, has failed to coherently put together domestic economic/social policies they stand for after 6-months of publishing them - but SEE THEMSELVES as 'alternatives' to the three party system as they say that they can be trusted to run the country.

Effectively UKIP offers nothing, no success record, no coherent set of domestic policies and you have to LIE on the EU to get votes, if THAT is not 'kin divine right arrogance right off the political scale, I don't know what is. lol

'Effectively UKIP offers nothing'

UKIP offers change, an end to the high-fiving camaraderie of the chums and the Brussels elite. It's got the chums chopping and changing, rewriting and rearranging, swearing and shortchanging. They've called Boris back, they thought they were alright Jack but UKIP threatens them with the sack, the people want common sense democracy back.

What a crock of pooh, when Ukip stops telling a lie what it can deliver on the EU and stands by a domestic policy longer than it takes Farage to have a hair cut - ONLY THEN can UkIP even CLAIM they have any answers.

The Monster Looney Party's policies are more consistent than UKIPs, and they don't lie about what they can do re an exit from the EU.

The Greens are consistent.

Both have a more legitimate claim to being different to the main party's than ex commodity broker Farage's flip flop politics.

The Greens are consistent. Yes, consistently wrong.

But the public backed UKIP in the Euro elections. The earthquake that Farage predicted, happened.

The public are consistent- consistently right, as are UKIP.

That's why the Tories are reeling, they know the public don't like the high-fiving jiving, the crafty conniving. The Tories know that Farage's polls are climbing while polls for the Hooray Henry, hijinks, high-living high-fiving Herberts are diving.

Claig ….. has it seriously not occurred to you that the success of the party you promote so vigorously as ‘different’, is only so based on a giant lie, that UKIP can bring the UK out of the EU????

And that in pursuit of that lie and successfully fooling the electorate for the vanity of several Westminster seats to please your rich financial backers, that you would rather give an unapologetic Labour the chance to finish this country off economically - and ensure that the UK REMAINS in the EU as drifts closer to a Federal State socialist parties believe will protect us from economic incompetence.

How democratically sad is that for our children and their children’s children, already saddled with nearly £1.4 TRILLION (£1,400,000,000,000) of National Debt and without an economy with sustainable growth - can only be repaid by further cuts to services and ever higher taxes for all - similar to those Labour inflicted up to 1979, but they kept secret before the 2010 General Election.

I think UKIP have done a great job in terms of offering an alternative to the mainstream contenders. They've highlighted some fundamental issues and are key to those who wish to go against the two main parties.

However, people should realise that their popularity to date stems purely from boastful claims and unrealistic policies, aimed at those who don't quite grasp the enormity or complexity of governing a country. This is marketing, and they do it well.

Of course, everything Mr Farage proposes is the common sense approach. Wave the magic wand and everything will fall into place! Of course!

The old saying 'easier said than done' comes to mind. UKIP simply haven't produced any policies that could be seen to work.

UKIP have my support, but im not under any illusion that they could run the country. I support them for what they are, an 'alternative'.

The 'difference' being that as Ukips main policy is that they can bring the UK out of the EU is a bare faced lie they tell the electorate at every elections - they have a global political record of campaigning on 100% lies.

Surely there are better UK 'alternatives' that that, even away from either the Labour or Conservative Party's that are GUARANTEED to form the next government in 2015 and whose policies will decide our children and grandchildren's future.

Ukip is still a 'protest vote', when the country needs to decide which of the main party's manifesto they want to ensure the country can pay for what we want without taking our national debt over £1.5 trillion, currently costing the taxpayer £52 billion in interest charges each year - and thats with record low borrowing rates.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a lie in saying that it (UKIP) could bring the UK out of the Eurozone. To say it couldn't happen would be to assume that all of the European treaties are set in stone. Now, to set these in stone is to say that all the Eurozones problems are being resolved, and we all know they are not!

Successful European reforms will involve large transfers of national sovereignty to a federal level. Major changes will be needed if the Eurozone is to stay intact, which means the inevitability that one day, Britain will be forced to Either break away entirely, or become a federal state.

Britain's ties to the EU are secure to an extent, but not solid.

Just to be clear:

UKIP has never said that it could take the UK out of the EU.

That is a lie that Conservatives like to bandy about in an attempt to make UKIP look disingenuous.

All UKIP has ever said is that it believes the UK would benefit from leaving the EU. A view shared by an increasing number of former senior Tories.

So lets stop the Conservative lie and start fighting a fair battle.

We could start by Dave telling us what exactly these EU reforms are that he wants to achieve.

And how he will get those agreements in the short period between May 2015 and the referendum on those changes that hes promised will take place in 2017. Not much time..

And how he will ensure that those changes are legally binding on the EU, as most will not have been ratified by the other EU members own Parliaments by that date. Unless they are such minor changes that they dont need ratification. Minor change is useless.