Justice for Men and Boys - Isn't this exactly why we need feminism

[wickeddevil]

Heard Justice for Men and Boys Founder Mike Buccanan on Womens Hour earlier today complaining that men pay 72% of all income tax.
Well isn't that because they have more income?
And instead of complaining about the feminist agenda doesn't it demonstrate why we need it?

[MikeBuchanan]

Good evening. Very pushed for time, so forgive me if I limit myself to two things:

1. Seeker, I have no intention of publicising deletion of my posts on MN on any websites. MN has guidelines, and if I've unwittingly contravened them, it's only reasonable my comments are deleted. I make every effort not to be offensive despite occasionally extreme provocation (e.g. John O'Farrell equating 'Justice for Men & Boys' with the KKK on 'Woman's Hour'), and to point people to sources of information such as ONS reports on domestic abuse/violence.
   

1. Suicide. Women 'attempt' suicide 3x more often than men. Men commit suicide 3x more often than women. A 9x differential. What might explain this? I've asked a number of experts in the field why this might be, and they all offered a startlingly consistent analysis. Women EXPECT society / the state to support them in a crisis, with good reason, and will typically make a 'cry for help' e.g. take a paracetamol overdose then immediately call 999 (several of my own female relatives and friends have done this over the past 20 years). Men DON'T expect society / the state to support them in a crisis, with good reason, so will typically use a certain (or near-certain) method to end their own lives.
   

Can you IMAGINE what the state's response would be if women were committing suicide at 3x the rate of men?

Men have always been expendable. The state tells men in distress to go hang themselves. We shouldn't be surprised that so many of them end up doing exactly that.

Mike Buchanan

JUSTICE FOR MEN & BOYS
(and the women who love them)

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

John O'Farrell has it about right then.

[Pan]

"Very pushed for time, so forgive me if I limit myself to two things:"

Less than one would have been better?

You do realise that you will probably be heavily mocked every time you pop up here?

[ElBurroSinNombre]

Mike,

The stats are very interesting. I am a man and unlike yourself I do not believe that the state tells me to 'go and hang myself'.

Is it possible that the reason why the stats are different because men and women are biologically different and have different behaviour patterns (on average). Your 'analysis' treats them as if they were identical - but they are not. The difference in behaviour could be either have evolved along with our species or be cultural expectations of male behaviour. It would be interesting to know if these stats. are repeated in other societies - this would tell us whether it was something about being male or something about being British that causes the discrepancy. If it is just cultural expectations then it would be easier to do something about it.

To rebut your point - The Samaritans, for instance, does not (afaik) discriminate between the sexes in the help that it gives and if it could be proved that it did this would be illegal.

[MikeBuchanan]

Pan, if I'm 'heavily mocked' for giving my opinions on MN and pointing people to reliable sources of information, so be it. Water off a duck's back, and all that. If you think I'm going to be deterred by personal attacks and shaming tactics, whether from you or anyone else, you're not learning from experience. Personal attacks and shaming tactics are reflective of an absence of evidence-based counter-arguments.

Thanks ElBurro... I don't see how my analysis - or rather that of experts in the field, who I cite - treats men and women 'as if they are identical', and for what it's worth, I think nothing of the sort. Men are far more likely than women to commit suicide across the developed world. In many countries the differential between male and female suicides is even more marked.

[seeker]

"Men have always been expendable. The state tells men in distress to go hang themselves. We shouldn't be surprised that so many of them end up doing exactly that."

So if a man rings 999 nobody answers the call? But if a woman does somebody comes?

[MikeBuchanan]

Seeker, I'm not saying that. But let's look at how the state operates in a number of areas:

1. Homeless people - 95%+ are men, partly because women are given priority for social housing.
   

1. 40% of victims of domestic abuse/violence are men (ONS figures). Given that the ONS also reports men are three times as likely as women not to report DA/DV, it's reasonable to assume that men make up the majority of victims. So what places in refuges does the state finance? 4,000+ for women, 15 for straight men (Mankind Initiative).
   

1. While the state forces men to financially support their ex-partners and children, it doesn't in return ensure those men are gven reasonable access to their children. Women routinely frustrate contact orders knowing they won't be taken to account for it. Forced separation from children is believed to be a major driver of male suicide.
   

1. Unemployment is known to be a bigger driver of suicide among men than women. For every three women registered as unemployed, four men are. Men pay 72% of the income tax paid in the UK, women only 28%. Almost two-thirds of public sector employees are women, yet the Equality Act (2010) allows public sector bodies to favour women over men when recruiting and promoting.
   

I never cease to be amazed at the compassion women (reasonably) expect men to show women, given the lack of compassion women (unreasonably) show men in return.

[Pan]

" yet the Equality Act (2010) allows public sector bodies to favour women over men when recruiting and promoting."

is there no end to your ill-informed nonsense?

[seeker]

"Seeker, I'm not saying that. But let's look at how the state operates in a number of areas:

1. Homeless people - 95%+ are men, partly because women are given priority for social housing.
   

Women are not given priority for social housing- people with children are. Overwhelmingly, single people with children are women

1. 40% of victims of domestic abuse/violence are men (ONS figures). Given that the ONS also reports men are three times as likely as women not to report DA/DV, it's reasonable to assume that men make up the majority of victims. So what places in refuges does the state finance? 4,000+ for women, 15 for straight men (Mankind Initiative).
   

i'm not qualified to comment on this- except to point out that women are murdered by men in domestic violence incidents an order of magnitude more often than the other way round

1. While the state forces men to financially support their ex-partners and children, it doesn't in return ensure those men are gven reasonable access to their children. Women routinely frustrate contact orders knowing they won't be taken to account for it. Forced separation from children is believed to be a major driver of male suicide.
   

*Do you actually have any evidence to support these claims? They do not reflect what I see in my life-but anecdote is not data, on either side.

1. Unemployment is known to be a bigger driver of suicide among men than women. For every three women registered as unemployed, four men are. Men pay 72% of the income tax paid in the UK, women only 28%. Almost two-thirds of public sector employees are women, yet the Equality Act (2010) allows public sector bodies to favour women over men when recruiting and promoting.
   

Men pay more tax because the occupy the majority of better paid jobs. 'More men than women are registered as unemployed because more women are full time carers. Two thirds of public sector employees are women because women fill significantly more lower paid and part time jobs than men does and that is what the majority of those jobs are. The Equality Act does not allow public sector bodies to favour women.

I never cease to be amazed at the compassion women (reasonably) expect men to show women, given the lack of compassion women (unreasonably) show men in return.
Those who deserve compassion should have it, whether they are men or women. I see no lack of compassion towards men- examples please

[MikeBuchanan]

Pan and Seeker, must go now, but I wrote at considerable length in one of my books about the Equality Act (2010). Won't say which book, lest I contravene MN guidelines, but the act included the concept of 'positive action' which is effectively positive discrimination (for women and others) in all but name. Why, it's almost like patriarchy is a crazy fantasy haha!

[joiemecconue]

who is this person posting like an utter utter freak?

[Pan]

no Mike, 'positive action' under the act has 3 specific requirements. Sex/gender isn't one of them, not by name or inference. If you'd researched properly you would have known this?
Maybe come back when you're better informed?

[Pan]

If you mean Mike?....oh he's apparently sincere, but his posts and views are a bit delusional, and not well informed. I'd now see him as a bit of a troll, so for me best ignored.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

Pan and Seeker, must go now, but I wrote at considerable length in one of my books about the Equality Act (2010). Won't say which book, lest I contravene MN guidelines,

Yeah, we'll all, like, be rushing to pick that up.

[joiemecconue]

Yes him! What does 'women (and others)' mean? There's women, transpeople and men - that's everybody isn't it so who is the positive discrimination favouring?

[Pan]

it's more to do with arguing that 'positive discrimination' is used to promote women over men. The Act is not supportive of that, is very clear - that has always been illegal. I apply this as part of one of my prof. tasks. Mike is a bitter fantasist, imho.

[AThingInYourLife]

:o

Watching Pan, seeker and ElBurro take that guy apart was properly funny.

[seeker]

"Pan and Seeker, must go now, but I wrote at considerable length in one of my books about the Equality Act (2010). Won't say which book, lest I contravene MN guidelines, but the act included the concept of 'positive action' which is effectively positive discrimination (for women and others) in all but name. Why, it's almost like patriarchy is a crazy fantasy haha!"

Interesting that you had to go at this particular point. However, positive action and positive discrimination are two completely different things. In practice and in law.

[ElBurroSinNombre]

Mike,

Thanks for clarifying about the rates in other countries. I am not at all surprised that male suicide rates are higher than female rates abroad as well as here. My guess would be that they also would also be higher in developing / third world countries if statistics were kept on this sort of thing.

Does this mean that all of the other countries with higher suicide rates for males also discriminate against men causing these tragic deaths - as you suggest is the case in the UK?

The alternative hypothesis is that men (in general) are more likely to make a successful suicide bid because they are biologically different to females.

[joiemecconue]

Men kill more often - themselves, other men, women. Suicide is essentially a violent act and men commit the majority of violent offences.

[JennyWoo]

I have just listened to the interview now. What an absolute plonker. Someone has some serious unresolved personal issues and is venting on a large "political" stage. It is quite simply ridiculous to imply women are taking over. The reason changes made are seen to be in favour of women is because there's more to be changed to make things equal between the sexes. It leaves me baffled that there are women that support you and your "cause". Like the BNP you may well gather a few followers until they let you speak too much and realise it's simply a hate-filled, misogynistic and very public drawn-out tantrum.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

" It leaves me baffled that there are women that support you and your "cause". "

We've only his word for that... Then again, being female doesn't exempt anyone from being a misogynist. Bottom line is that life's tough enough, there are plenty of inequalities that don't involve gender and we'll get a lot further a lot quicker working together as grown-ups than we will with childish demands like all new mothers taking paternity tests. I really don't get the point of the 'more men commit suicide' remark... All suicides are a tragedy, not a competition.

[SpecialAgentTattooedQueen]

There is no way more men are domestically abused/raped than women.

That has to be some sort of a sick joke, right?

[joiemecconue]

I thought the suicide reference might be used to reinforce claims that society is somehow so tilted against men as in converse situations likr China where women and girls complete suicide far more often than men. But actually men are just more likely, globally, to take human life whether their own or others'.

[joiemecconue]

If men are more domestically abused than women why don't we see their murders on the news every week?