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Original poster

Justice for Men and Boys - Isn't this exactly why we need feminism

999 replies

wickeddevil · 30/03/2013 22:27

Heard Justice for Men and Boys Founder Mike Buccanan on Womens Hour earlier today complaining that men pay 72% of all income tax.
Well isn't that because they have more income?

And instead of complaining about the feminist agenda doesn't it demonstrate why we need it?

OP posts:
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 14/04/2013 20:58

sigmund - why indeed would any man want a job when they know it's just through the old boys network, rather than being the best candidate for the job?

Doesn't seemed to have worried many men.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 14/04/2013 21:05

Ok - so I looked at Mike's website - clarity isn't a word I'd use to describe it. And yes, I do feel sullied having clicked on it.

He lists his main 'areas of concern" as follows:

Anti-male legislation and official guidelines for civil servants
Political representation
Education
Employment
Family support
Marriage and divorce
Domestic abuse
Parental access to children
Paternity fraud
Health
The justice system
Rape
The business sector
Homelessness
Suicide
Retirement age
Prostitution
The charitable status of politically-motivated charities

Worryingly, Rape is a category. Is Mike going to work to improve the appalling rape conviction statistics, I wonder? You know, where only 6% of rape victims see their attacker convicted?

Wait a minute - what's that on his website? Links to The False Rape Society. Unlikely that he'll be working to improve things for rape victims anytime soon, then.

I can't actually tell what he'll implement - apart from no women's quotas and compulsory paternity testing.

Can you enlighten us, Fraude?

SigmundFraude · 14/04/2013 21:21

Here is the public consultation document from Mike's site..

j4mb.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/130320-j4mb-consultation-document.pdf

Please don't call me Fraude, it's rude. I don't call you Jones. Unless you're calling me a fraud, in which case you're missing the point of my name.

runningforthebusinheels · 14/04/2013 21:29

Sigmunde, That document you've linked to is just a load more waffle - it doesn't talk about any specific legislation Mike would bring in if he came to power.

Perhaps it doesn't matter - fringe parties asking to for yet more male privilege in society - when the current law makers are already predominantly male - are unlikely to make much political headway.

seeker asked a perfectly simple question - what 3 pieces of legislation would Mike bring in to address mens' supposed disadvantage in society?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 14/04/2013 21:31

Apologies sigmund. I was feeling mischievous for a moment there. Blush

I agree with running though.

AnnieLobeseder · 14/04/2013 21:37

I think you'll find it's Jjones, not Jones.

So you freely admit there's an Old Boys' Network, but still insist the women aren't in Parliament or on executive boards because they don't want it. These are mutually exclusive points of view.

The reason no-one is asking for logging quotas is because there no need; it will follow naturally from more women in government/on boards. Change is best implemented from the top. More women in power means more women-friendly legislation and a more equal society. One in which women are more freely able to take up logging without being told they're not physically strong enough. There is far more progress to be make for women in every avenue when more women are at the top.

Pan · 14/04/2013 21:37

I've just wasted 5 mins going through the 'consultation' document. Yes the same waffly drivel that Mike posted up above, making the same ill-informed assumptions and nowhere indicating how situations may have arisen. Overall in many sections it seeks to blame women for problems created by men themselves/ourselves. Some of the proposals in Family Court are beyond belief.
Personally I prefer my own 'manifesto for men'. But then I would say that wouldn't I?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 14/04/2013 21:38

I think you'll find it's Jjones, not Jones.

Damn right Grin

Pan · 14/04/2013 21:42

oh and the criminal justice stuff re men and women's sentencing has no relationship to what actually happens fwiw.

SigmundFraude · 14/04/2013 21:46

I think that Mike needs to answer these questions really. I will be supporting him because currently, society discriminates against my sons, and above and beyond anything that concerns me in my life, that concerns me the most. I've never hidden this fact.

My sons are being schooled in a feminised environment, and boys are falling behind at school. My son can't play his favourite rough and tumble (no drawing of blood though) games at playtime because they're 'too aggressive'. He can never win because 'everyone's a winner'. He desperately wants to win. This isn't me being precious. Just simple exuberant things he likes to do are not allowed. He has to sit still, be quiet, draw and trace and a whole host of other things that girls IN THE MAIN are better at. Such bollocks. He could at least be allowed to let off steam at playtime, but no.

Beyond that, more women than men go to uni and and graduate. Beyond that, if my sons marry they are far more likely to be screwed over by the law courts, far more likely to lose custody of their children. If they are victims of DV, they are far less likely to be believed and support is very thin on the ground.

These are the things that concern me.

Blistory · 14/04/2013 21:46

SF, are you seriously telling me that you don't think women suffer any discrimination whatsoever ? That all the posts about low level abuse and harassment are made up ? I'm a middle class, white, able bodied, privately educated, degree holding, professional woman therefore I have every possible advantage that a woman in society can have in terms of being measured against a man. If I can't escape the abuse and discrimination then how the hell do other women have a chance ?

I've never been raped but I don't deny it happens. Why are you so reluctant to acknowledge that a woman's lot can be difficult ?That women are harmed at the hands of men. ? It doesn't diminish feminism to acknowledge that men also suffer harm but you seem to think that any acknowledgement on your part that women suffer, diminishes the pro man stance you appear to take.

SigmundFraude · 14/04/2013 21:48

'So you freely admit there's an Old Boys' Network'

Not any more, not really. There was.

SigmundFraude · 14/04/2013 21:49

'One in which women are more freely able to take up logging without being told they're not physically strong enough'

But most aren't physically strong enough. Are you?

Blistory · 14/04/2013 21:51

Ah, I see. Your preconceived ideas of how boys should be colours your whole outlook. Did you watch that link posted earlier by Pan. He explains that what we expect from men is cultural not inherent just because of their sex.

runningforthebusinheels · 14/04/2013 21:52

^My son can't play his favourite rough and tumble (no drawing of blood though) games at playtime because they're 'too aggressive'.

Oh my God. Do you really believe that? I just don't know how to answer that - except that if you encourage your boy that 'rough and tumble' is ok (as long as no blood is drawn - good grief!) then you aren't doing him any favours in the long run. Take him to rugby club or something - channel it in a positive way.

If a school is telling him his play is too aggressive, then you really need to listen to that.

Blistory · 14/04/2013 21:52

Trust me, the old boys network is alive and kicking. Very much so.

SigmundFraude · 14/04/2013 21:53

'Why are you so reluctant to acknowledge that a woman's lot can be difficult ?That women are harmed at the hands of men.?'

I'm not reluctant to acknowledge it. Have I ever written 'what about teh womenz'? Ever? However, I have seen 'what about teh menz' in posts on here many times.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 14/04/2013 21:55

Do you think that aggression in boys should be tolerated just because they are boys and boys will be boys, sigmund?

AutumnMadness · 14/04/2013 21:56

SigmundFraude, I was not asking what feminist would do. I know very well what they would do. I was asking what you would do about men's rights on the basis of your theory of social change.

As I recall, you said that social change just happens by itself, and that feminists had nothing to do with the changes in the roles of women in our society. Considering that feminists and what they do are pretty much irrelevant to social change in your eyes, I totally fail to understand why you are so bothered about them. Or have the modern feminists suddenly acquired some agency? How did that happen?

If social change happens by itself, irrespective of the actions of any people, then surely you should just let the men's rights evolve by themselves, without your help. As nothing you do will actually make any difference.

Blistory · 14/04/2013 21:56

You deny the rights of women to be treated equally because your boy can't rough and tumble in case he hurts someone ?

Holy fuck, that's obviously comparable to the discrimination women face. Time to grow up.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 14/04/2013 21:58

Does your son's school only let the girl's win and not the boys? Are boys only interested in 'winning' and not girls? Do feminists campaign to stop children 'winning'?

It never ceases to amaze me how so many things are blamed on feminism, which have nothing whatsoever to do with feminism.

Pan · 14/04/2013 22:00

ah I see about the 'little princesses' slur. As you are defending your boy as other children boys and girls don't like being pushed and pulled and hit by an aggressive little boy. Jeez. Sometimes your PR presentation is worse than Mike's tbh.

SigmundFraude · 14/04/2013 22:00

'Ah, I see. Your preconceived ideas of how boys should be colours your whole outlook.'

No. I see my sons. I also see other boys behave in different ways. If you're imagining that I indoctrinate my boys, think again. My youngest wears pink and loves his doll. He also loves wrestling with his older brother. I let them choose their toys, so they have had cookers and hoovers and trains and puzzles and fairy wands and bug containers and God knows what else. Their Dad cooks and cleans when he can, I put up shelves as well as load the dishwasher.

I don't tell them how to be. I will teach them to respect themselves and to respect others. I will not teach them to apologise to anybody on behalf of their own sex.

SigmundFraude · 14/04/2013 22:01

'Holy fuck, that's obviously comparable to the discrimination women face. Time to grow up.'

Nice bit of twisting there.

SigmundFraude · 14/04/2013 22:02

'ah I see about the 'little princesses' slur. As you are defending your boy as other children boys and girls don't like being pushed and pulled and hit by an aggressive little boy. Jeez. Sometimes your PR presentation is worse than Mike's tbh.'

Do you think that everyone's interpretation of aggressive is the same Pan?