Justice for Men and Boys - Isn't this exactly why we need feminism

[wickeddevil]

Heard Justice for Men and Boys Founder Mike Buccanan on Womens Hour earlier today complaining that men pay 72% of all income tax.
Well isn't that because they have more income?

And instead of complaining about the feminist agenda doesn't it demonstrate why we need it?

And don't start on the 'false rape accusations' crap. This is a graph depicting number of rapes, number of convictions and number of false accusations:

Here

It's worth noting that a man is statistically more likely to be raped by another man than be falsely accused of rape by a woman.

Interesting links, Vadark. The one that talks about Defence and women in the military is one of the most depressing views of men that there is. How on earth does that support what you are arguing ? It actually states that women can expect to be abused in the military because men can be trusted and can't help it. Does that really help prove your point ? You obviously have a lower opinion of men than I do.

Thanks to Pan and NT for engaging. The support is appreciated. It goes without saying that I admire the female posters for taking the time and effort to try and educate Vadark and his like - you have way more patience than me.

I am perfectly happy to say that if women sexually abuse men it is wrong and they shouldn't do it. The behaviour of some women at some hen parties makes me cringe.

However, I don't think that it is every day and routine. I haven't had to coach my son in techniques for dealing with unwanted "advances" in the way I have my daughter. Maybe he's been lucky and she's been unlucky?

"can't be trusted"

More likely that he just didn't tell you, I'd have thought. And if he hasn't by now, he probably will.

Are you really saying that men are as routinely sexually abused on a daily basis by women as women are by men? Really?

Still waiting, Vardak.

Whether it's abuse or not is up to the 'victim' to decide, sigmund.

And no, it's not ok when women do it - but I really think it would be the most disingenuous thing in the world to argue that men are victims of sexual harassment as much as women.

Am I saying that? Maybe not as much probably, if I'm honest. But I would think it was more common than you seem to think it is seeker.

Also, it's virtually impossible to quantify. Just impossible.

You can quantify it by watching male and female behaviour on any given street in London, or any pub for any given period of time.

That is not an accurate way of quantifying anything. If I quantified something by going to my local town on any given evening I would be giving an unrealistic view nationally.

Vadark wrote - "I also read somewhere that 200 women a year kill their children".

Your claim cannot apply to the UK or any subdivision of it.

Each year, in the UK, approximately 70 children are killed by another person. Those children are killed by men, women and other children.

Also, the NSPCC say that:

"Killings of children by a natural parent are committed in roughly equal proportions by mothers (47%) and fathers (53%), but where the child is killed by someone other than a [birth] parent, males strongly predominate".

source: www.nspcc.org.uk/inform/research/statistics/child_homicide_statistics_wda48747.html

Arguing, or even implying that women are as bad as men when it comes to low level sexual harassment is ludicrous. If mra types are going to try that one they do look incredibly stupid.

Certainly for serious sexual assault and rape it is indisputable that women make up the majority of victims and men the vast majority of perpetrators.

'Arguing, or even implying that women are as bad as men when it comes to low level sexual harassment is ludicrous. If mra types are going to try that one they do look incredibly stupid.'

Can you prove that it isn't true?

Its a fairly boring discussion actually. Not even sure i see the point of it.

Gosh. What a thread.

What strikes me - amid the frightening dismissal of the reality of sexual violence towards women, which I'll return to - is that the focus from some of the male perspectives on here seems to be that feminism has 'done it's job'. Swung too far the other way even, with the over-protection of women's rights at the expense of men's, to men's detriment.

I see feminism as a global project - and it's got an awfully long way to go. Hugely.

Re: the sexual violence - no one's suggesting here that men don't experience sexual violence, or physical violence in other forms. But that acknowledgment doesn't diminish the reality of the day to day experiences of women either, in my view (and I could list my experiences, from sexual assault at age 10, being assaulted again by an older partner aged 14, and sexually assaulted by a police officer aged 18). It's not a case of 'men / boys get hurt too you know!' - more how are we protecting vulnerable children, listening to vulnerable children and adults, and - most importantly - believing ALL those who are courageous enough to report violence and sexual violence.

I want my son to grow up knowing it's not ok to hurt anyone, ever, or to be hurt. I want him to grow up respecting women as equals, not as some socially-ascribed role. I want him to not think 'Oh, she's done well to get this far...' because it's so unusual for a woman to hold a certain position. I want him to not think of women in terms of binaries (madonna / whore or bitch career woman / Earth Mother).

Not even sure this makes sense (it's late and I'm really quite upset by a few of the perspectives on here) but hope it does somehow.

BasicallySFB, you are making perfect sense to me. I am also struck by the constant tit-for-tat tone of the arguments. The basic argument seems to be "we are not going to talk about this women's problem because it's men's problem too". Where is the sense in that?

Back on page 16, I felt that MRAs like Vadark are unable to grasp feminist arguments because they lack the critical thinking skills which are required to overcome the entrenched nature of male priviledge in our society and so, therefore, the different views and perspectives offered by feminist thought seem hostile and threatening to them and make them feel angry.

However, having continued to read Vadark's posts and considered the almost willful refusal to listen to any reasoned argument at all, along with the rather hysterical insults offered to any man who agrees with the women on here (the superhero analogies etc), I am not so sure it is just an inability to understand. I think there is a real hatred of women coming across and a determination not to treat women or their views with any empathy or respect. I do not think that the average poorly educated man feels this hatred for women and, therefore, conclude that Vadark is a bit odd, to say the least, and there really is no point in discussing things further wth him.

hmm. not sure that sounds slightly paranoid to me!

'I think there is a real hatred of women coming across and a determination not to treat women or their views with any empathy or respect.'

What an unusual and well thought out conclusion to come to. Straight out of the 'Feminist Conclusion Handbook' page one.

As for the superhero analogies, could someone enlighten me as to how that is any different to the 'Handmaiden/Man' insults that have been thrown at me?

Seems relevant. About 2 mins in he asks what do men do everyday to avoid themselves being sexually assaulted or harassed...

Was posted by Hesterburntitall < I think> a few months ago.

Going back to vadark's point earlier:

He linked to this Independent article

Vadark then said 1000 too many if you ask me but I also read somewhere that 200 women a year kill their children But you don't hear men ranting and tarnishing all women as child-killers, do you!

That post is just exemplary of what men like vadark do - they see an article where the headline is "100,000 rapes only 1,000 convictions" - and they say "there were 1000 rape convictions last year, which is too 1000 too many if you ask me" ( I'm sure we all know what you mean, vadark). "but 200 women killed their children".

So there we have vadark refusing to engage on the actual point of the Independent article he linked to - which was the low rape conviction rate - and instead going off on a compete tangent of "but women kill their children".

Anyway, turns out the 200 women a year killing their children was a made up by vadark figure - vadark didn't feel the need to substantiate his claim in any way. He just threw it in as some sort of rebuttal of the true rape statistics.

Because Vesuvia debunked his claim of "200 women a year kill their children" quite nicely here:

Each year, in the UK, approximately 70 children are killed by another person. Those children are killed by men, women and other children.

Also, the NSPCC say that:

"Killings of children by a natural parent are committed in roughly equal proportions by mothers (47%) and fathers (53%), but where the child is killed by someone other than a [birth] parent, males strongly predominate".

BUT NOT ALL MEN RAPE AND IN ACTUAL FACT IT IS A TINY, TINY MINORITY SO STOP TARNISHING MEN WITH THE SAM BROADBRUSH IDEA THAT ALL MEN RE RAPISTS!

I know. Do you know why I know? No? I'll tell you. It's because I'm not a fucking dullard.

To Vadark, Dad, Sigmund and all the others who question why I posted what I did. Do you understand why rape victims feel shame for being rape? Or they feel they're somehow to blame? I do. I was raped after a party by a MARRIED man. No, I didn't report it. Male on male rape is apparently more common than you'd think. And just the same as male on female rape, it isn't about sex, it's about power, control, humiliation and fear.

So yeah, humble and ashamed feels about right, because it brings back feelings I'd rather not have.

NicholasT - I'm so sorry for what you went through and thank you for sharing that on this thread. I'm so sorry that you felt it was necessary to do so by the really quite goady replies you received for you posts here. I hope you're ok.

pan - that link is an amazing speech - I've never seen it before. I'm guessing men like vadark will listen to it for about 1 minute before dismissing it as 'feminist crap' and 'valiant superhero on a white horse'

Thank you for posting it.

NT, so sorry that you experienced that. You don't need to justify your stance to anyone but I am humbled by the compassion that you regularly show to women posting on these boards.