Justice for Men and Boys - Isn't this exactly why we need feminism

[wickeddevil]

Heard Justice for Men and Boys Founder Mike Buccanan on Womens Hour earlier today complaining that men pay 72% of all income tax.
Well isn't that because they have more income?

And instead of complaining about the feminist agenda doesn't it demonstrate why we need it?

'Demanding that a woman has an abortion is the same as demanding that a man has a vasectomy against his wishes. '

Not really.

Discrimination Against Men

24 indicators of discrimination

The Guardian one from 2006

for easier ref.

On the subject of besmirching lyrics, did you sign the petition for Reebok to drop Rick Ross (which they have now done)?

SigmundFraude, "not really" is not an argument.

In that case, sigmund - sometimes I'm ashamed of being British because of our history of colonisation.

Fair enough, SF.

But would you think I was indoctrinated somehow for saying it?

I agree, Vardak, that probably is what would happen. And I can see that could be tragic for the man concerned.

So. What solution do you propose?

I don't need to expand on 'not really'. Just re-read the quote I highlighted.

Doctrine - If you belonged to an ideology that spent all of it's time telling you that you should be ashamed of the British Colonisation, that you are somehow responsible, even though it wasn't something that you did, or endorsed. If you spent time in the company of people who told you that you were somehow responsible, and these same people said that you didn't speak out enough, that you weren't convincing enough. If you then said, publicly, to whoever would listen that you were ashamed to be British, then yes, I would say you had been indoctrinated.

SigmundFraude, I come here to talk to people, not re-read my own writing at the behest of somebody who is not even bothered to explain their request. If you consider me so silly that I am not even worthy of your explanation, then just don't talk to me. I won't mind at all.

No probs

Thank you for your honesty.

And can you not see how the man has no choice in the matter, or at least the potential for giving him no chance is backed by society and the law?

But what on earth is the alternative? In the event of an unwanted pregnancy society either gives men rights over the woman's body, or gives the woman autonomy over her own body. In a society where women have full human rights, it has to be the latter. Yes, the man loses choice at this stage - but that is because it is something that is purely to do with the woman's body now.

To infer from this biological fact that men have fewer rights than women is very unfair on the woman - since it is the woman's who is actually having to make a very real choice between a pregnancy/childbirth & raising an unplanned child, or an unpleasant medical procedure - and the resultant physical and mental problems associated with either choice.

"I just do not believe, not matter how many times I read it, that in the 1960's US women 'owned' 65% of that country's wealth.
"

You wouldn't believe ANYTHING no matter how many times you read it because you're brainwashed, indoctrinated and have no intention of changing your stubborn views.

I still don't get why people are ashamed of other people's actions.

I'm responsible for my actions or if I see or hear of someone doing something illegal I'm responsible to do something about it.

It's my responsibility to bring my children up and the children I teach to have the self awareness to take responsibility for their behaviour.

Ballsed if I'm going to feel ashamed about what other people do.

Angry, yes. Ashamed, no.

Ah, Vardak, you're back. Please could you answer this? Thank you.

"Please would Vardak, or one of the other MRA on this thread tell me exactly what should happen in the case of a genuinely accidental pregnancy where the man wants the baby and the woman doesn't?

And when the woman wants the baby and the man doesn't.

Thank you.

I'm not an MRA but in both cases it's the woman's choice, I can't see how it could be any different

That seems logical, dadthelion- but Vardak appears to think differently. I just want him to explain how it could be different, because I appear to be missing something.

"Vadark - nobody has said that all men rape."

No but it seems to be a way of demonising all men when clearly very few men are rapists. There are about 1000 men convicted of rape each year.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/100000-assaults-1000-rapists-sentenced-shockingly-low-conviction-rates-revealed-8446058.html

1000 too many if you ask me but I also read somewhere that 200 women a year kill their children But you don't hear men ranting and tarnishing all women as child-killers, do you!

"Tell me - have you ever laughed at a rape joke in a comedy club, on TV or irl? Have you been with men who laughed?"

No. Have you ever laughed at the vast amount of men that get kicked in the crotch in a comedy sketch, despite the fact that doing such a thing can kill a man or cause permanent damage for life?

"Or who catcalled women? Or shouted 'get your tits out' ?"

No, I'm not like that. I've also heard many women shout similar things.

Startling stats re gender and race wealth distribution in USA

Less startling but significant stats re wealth/asset ownership UK 2008-2010

The second one may hurt your eyes a bit at first, but re-focus and have a look?
These took about 3 mins of google time. Searches for female/male poverty in both countries will throw up similar stats, I'm sure.

Yep, just me and my blinkered, stubborn fact-based views.....

Ah, Vardak, you're back. Please could you answer this? Thank you.

"Please would Vardak, or one of the other MRA on this thread tell me exactly what should happen in the case of a genuinely accidental pregnancy where the man wants the baby and the woman doesn't?

And when the woman wants the baby and the man doesn't.

Thank you.

Spectacularly missing the point there Vadark. No one is saying that it's okay to ridicule men but all you are arguing is 'but women do it too.' Why aren't you able to say 'yes, men do carry out low level abuse every day and it's wrong.' Pointing out that women may do it to doesn't really suggest that you're listening.

And I would really like to hear a reasoned response to Seeker's question instead of your constant cop out of 'women do it to.

vadark - do you not understand the very simple fact that sexual assault and harassment is a gendered crime? The vast majority of victims are women, the vast majority of assailants are men.

1000 men convicted of rape each year - but do you realise that 9 out of 10 rape victims do not even report? This is an accepted figure by the UK government btw.

I'm not sure I've ever laughed at a man getting kicked in the crotch. No I'm pretty sure I haven't. But is that even an equivalent to rape? Let's go back to that fact that rape is a gendered sexual crime that destroys lives. Men are the perpetrators, women are the (vast majority of) victims. Men are far more likely to suffer any violence (like being kicked in the crotch) at the hands of other men than women.

You've heard many women shouting 'get your tits out?" I am surprised at that.

Vardak- please could you answer my question?

Why aren't you able to say 'yes, men do carry out low level abuse every day and it's wrong.'

The irony!! There is comment after comment on media sites from men stating that they have also experienced low level abuse and yet I have never once heard a feminist say 'yes, women also carry out low level abuse every day and it wrong'.

My personal take would be that both men and women experience low level abuse every day. I would also say that the word 'abuse' is subjective, because not all would see it that way. For eg. A woman is wolf-whistled, she hates it, therefore it's classed as abuse. A different woman is wolf-whistled and it makes her day, therefore it's harmless fun.