Justice for Men and Boys - Isn't this exactly why we need feminism

[wickeddevil]

Heard Justice for Men and Boys Founder Mike Buccanan on Womens Hour earlier today complaining that men pay 72% of all income tax.
Well isn't that because they have more income?

And instead of complaining about the feminist agenda doesn't it demonstrate why we need it?

Please would Vardak, or one of the other MRA on this thread tell me exactly what should happen in the case of a genuinely accidental pregnancy where the man wants the baby and the woman doesn't?

And when the woman wants the baby and the man doesn't.

Thank you.

'You always make me feel humbled and ashamed of my gender'

Why would you feel like that?

I don't feel humbled and ashamed for being a man, and I'm not passing that sort of crap on to my son either.

He said it in response to women sharing their experiences of sexual violence. His son sounds like he's doing ok.

I sometimes feel ashamed of my gender when I see women doing profoundly anti woman things- like supporting the porn industry, enabling abusive men and joining the MRA.

I think Nicholas is doing OK too.

Sometimes I feel the same when I think about things Americans have done. Ashamed. Even though I personally haven't done them and never would, even in some instances when things happened before i was born. I get what Nick was saying.

The thing about MRAs is, I always come away feeling like I actually like and respect men much more than they do, on the whole.

I don't believe most men can be so easily "enticed", or so cruel as to attempt to control a woman's decision regarding her own body. Or that most men would try to shirk their responsibilities toward children they created, whatever their feelings toward the mother were.

My DH certainly is not that stupid/selfish. Neither is my dad, who became a father at 18 and has been a stand-up man about it ever since.

If abortion is as simple as popping a pill, why not stress more vasectomies for men? It's just a snip, after all. They send you home the same day. Hmm?

People like Mike B make me ashamed to be British. People like Nick Griffin make me ashamed of being white British.

Plenty of other things make me proud to be British though.

Hmm, looks like I'm a bit late to this thread but can I just double-check that my understanding of your argument is correct?

As far as I can understand what you're saying is that women should be grateful to men that they do not have equality because men do all the dangerous stuff that men won't let women do? Is this right?

Sounds a bit silly to me....

"... seen first hand how young women get treated in public by some men."

What a load of old tosh. Yes, indeed, SOME (and this is a small minority of morons) DO do stupid things, I agree. And are YOU going to acknowledge that the same can happen the other way around, and does happen more frequently than you'd care to admit.

I have been in restaurants and public places with children when bunches of girls on hen nights have walked in (well before adult drinking times) and had no qualms about insulting guys right in front of their very face and many have marched around with obscene images of male genitals and objects which quite frankly make them look like ignorant, thoughtless, disgraceful women. They have no common decency and no respect. And then there's the fact that they are rude enough to use the men's toilets. What a cheek and where is their dignity! And you have the audacity to talk of public treatment. The most common form of widespread influence is the media, TV, radio, films, music etc. That's what gets into the blood and veins of our young generation. That's what brainwashes them regarding respect and treatment of fellow human beings. Funny how feminism has conveniently ignored the way men and boys are portrayed.

How about we start to talk about violence in music videos, lyrics that bash men and TV that relentlessly besmirches men at every given opportunity? Fancy a conversation about that? Cripes you are SO ignorant and oblivious. How can you stand up and condone the way men are treated in the media and not have an ounce of remorse!

"I don't post what I post to look good or to stick up for these women, heck, they're doing a great job of making you look like an idiot without my input."

Nah, that's not the case. You have nothing going for you in terms of facts. There are just so many inequalities and double standards against men these days that any feminist or white knight is onto a loser fromthe outset. Yu can keep clinging onto your last threads of hope but it's just a matter of time before it all turns on you and bites you hard. There is progress being made and Mike B is raising some excellent issues that nobody should ignore, unless they're an idiot or a selfish, self-centred, bias person who can't see beyond the end of their nose, of course!

The thing is that no matter WHAT facts I present that are negative for men you will NEVER have the decency to even acknowledge them. You just continue in your own shallow little world with supporting only half the population while I get on and recognise and support EVERYONE. Who is the better person?

Ah, Vardak, you're back. Please could you answer this? Thank you.

"Please would Vardak, or one of the other MRA on this thread tell me exactly what should happen in the case of a genuinely accidental pregnancy where the man wants the baby and the woman doesn't?

And when the woman wants the baby and the man doesn't.

Thank you.

www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/descrim.htm

www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/feb/25/discriminationatwork.workandcareers1

www.jtest28.com/discrimination.html

Look at some of those facts. I'm not stopping to validate all of them but these sorts of sites exist all over the internet in abundance. It's getting bigger and so it should! I could link hundreds of these site, many with startling facts that you shouldn't ignore unless you are shallow or self-centred, or, maybe, just hate men.

Virtually every area of life, from politics to leisure has now seen the pendulum swing far too much against men and I've absolutely no doubt that there is going to be a backlash. And you remain oblivious, which is shocking considering many of you appear to have Sons. Shocking, really. You won't even listen.

"Please would Vardak, or one of the other MRA on this thread tell me exactly what should happen in the case of a genuinely accidental pregnancy where the man wants the baby and the woman doesn't? "

I can tell you what WILL happen. An abbortion will follow!

And when the woman wants the baby and the man doesn't.

She'll have it and then claim for 18 year's worth of support.

He doesn't HAVE a choice!!!!! She does!!!!

Or make hime look like a deadbeat!

Is that all you took from my post Dad and others who I can't be arsed to go back and namecheck? You didn't get the refence to the stories women recounted of assault and rape? What I take from that is, in your opinion all that is fine, it's nothing to be ashamed of? Fuxake.

My son knows men and women are equal. He treats people how he likes to be treated, and is a popular young man. I'm intensely proud of him.

I understand that it's the woman's body.

Do YOU understand that the baby is BOTH of theirs?

And can you not see how the man has no choice in the matter, or at least the potential for giving him no chance is backed by society and the law?

That 'ashamed' comment has been bugging me all day. How sad is it, when a person feels compelled to state that he is ashamed of being male. Seriously.

Feminists have succeeded better than they could have hoped with men like him. I would say that I hoped that he didn't pass on his sense of shame to his sons, but it's doubtful.

Women have committed the most heinous crimes, but I won't be saying I'm ashamed to be a woman. Firstly, I have nothing to apologise for, and secondly, I won't be demonised by anyone.

I may be ashamed OF the behaviour of some women, but I will never be ashamed to BE one. That's some serious indoctrination going on.

Yes, NT. Why would women recounting horrible stories make you ashamed to be male?

Vadark. Your analysis of what will happen with an accidental pregnancy wanted by one party is correct. But what is your alternative?

Sorry Nicholas, let me remind you, cuz you've obviously forgotten, that I absolutely despise men who rape and I feel deeply for those women (and some men) who end up a victim. It's a shameful act that deserves severe punishment.

BUT NOT ALL MEN RAPE AND IN ACTUAL FACT IT IS A TINY, TINY MINORITY SO STOP TARNISHING MEN WITH THE SAM BROADBRUSH IDEA THAT ALL MEN RE RAPISTS!

And do YOU recognise that false rape claims wreck men's lives? Or does that not matter to you?

Stats tell us that more men get harmed and injured in public than women. Did you know that?

Spot on Sigmund.

Back later....

Doctrine, no excuses, I have to go - looking forward to debating with you being as you are thinking straight ;-)

Sf, if I posted that I was ashamed to be British because of the country's history of colonisation, would it bug you all day?

I've had a quick shufty through those links, Vadark. Links 1 and 3 are remarkably similar, oddly quoting v highly dodgy stats between the US and the UK without a pause. Usually thought they quote stats with no ref. whatsoever, nor provide any sort of analysis as to why these "statistics" may exist.

Overall though, absolutely none of them provides any sort of credibility to the claim that resources are being spent in favour of men rather than women. Incidentally, I just do not believe, not matter how many times I read it, that in the 1960's US women 'owned' 65% of that country's wealth.

The Guardian one? Well, fairly sort of 'one off'ish' and specific to two sectors from one study. (I'm not saying there is no discrimination in any sector - see the ignorance in male nanny/teachers on MN for eg). As other contributors to that article indicates the vast majority of discr. is against females.

Vadark - nobody has said that all men rape. But I can tell from your posts that you haven't given the slightest thought to the Every Day Sexism Project and the stories on there - not just of serious sexual assault and rape - but of low level sexism and treatment of women by men that is just so insidious that you, as a man, are probably unaware it even exists. Tell me - have you ever laughed at a rape joke in a comedy club, on TV or irl? Have you been with men who laughed? Or who catcalled women? Or shouted 'get your tits out' ? Did you challenge them about perpetuation of a rape culture that is affecting the way our young women are growing up?

And I know you're feeling a bit sore about the way this thread has gone, but there's no need to shout in your posts. It just makes you look like the angry man that Mike B is trying to recruit.

I resisted this for along time, but . . .

Vardak, I completely fail to understand why you think that it is discriminatory that a man should foot the bill for his accidental children for 18 years. It is not just the man who pays. The mother of the child does not suddenly have to stop worrying about money and live in idleness for 18 years. She also pays for the child. Sometimes from benefits, but most often by working and earning. BOTH parents pay for the child. That's the whole point.

And yes, of course a man cannot force a woman to have an abortion if he does not want a child. As you rightly say, it is a woman's body. A baby inside a woman is not a piece of clothing. She can't just take it off. Even when a woman makes a decision to have an abortion, it is a very difficult choice for her. Demanding that a woman has an abortion is the same as demanding that a man has a vasectomy against his wishes.

Saying this, I am sympathetic to men who end up in situations where their female partners are pregnant but want to abort and the men want to keep the child. I can see how a man's desire for the child can be very strong, and how a man's love for his unborn child can be very strong. I do wonder, however, in how many such cases men can and are willing to guarantee emotional and financial security for the women and then actually the primary parent for their children for 18+ years.

And, to repeat for the millionth time - if you don't want children, use contraception. You always have a choice.

Yes it would bug me Doctrine. I played no part in it, I didn't endorse it, so why would I, personally, apologise for it.

And Vardak, you STILL have not answered seeker's questions. Why can't you just answer a simple question?