Justice for Men and Boys - Isn't this exactly why we need feminism

[wickeddevil]

Heard Justice for Men and Boys Founder Mike Buccanan on Womens Hour earlier today complaining that men pay 72% of all income tax.
Well isn't that because they have more income?

And instead of complaining about the feminist agenda doesn't it demonstrate why we need it?

It is simply a lie to say that men are subjected to the same level of Domestic Violence as women.

It's a lie.

People who quote figures to "prove" it are quoting from utterly unreliable sources and no-one with any credibility believes it.

If anyone believes this guy, ask yourself why a parliament with 3/4 of its members who are men, would accept figures which show clearly, reliably and consistently, that men are the main perpetrators of DV and women are the main victims.

If the houses of parliament, local councils etc are run by evil feminists, why do most of the people in decision-making roles have penises?

Women's Aid are considered the absolute experts on the subject of DV, even by conservative male-dominated bodies like parliament. Why would "calm down dear" Cameron accept their figures, if they are as unreliable as the ones these MRA's quote?

"Vadark, your link is rubbish I demanded 'links to a breakdown of prevalence, seriousness, treatment and cost to the NHS of female vs. male cancers and I want undisputed proof, in links, that women are favoured over men'."

Try this other rubbish link then.

You have completely ignored my other points (unless we count the garbled, disingenuous comment on warfare...for the record my grandma packed her bag and went to sign up to fight in WW2, she wasn't allowed. A man stopped her. She stayed at home working in a munitions factory losing her father and brother...proper cushy eh!?).

Yeah, far more cushy to be a man and actually go to war and have your legs blown off than being told to stay at home. Yeah, right!

"There is just no reasoning with your contrary, disingenous claims. Please, please, please, tell me what you hope to achieve?"

True equality.

"Whereas, globally, 2 million people are killed at work each year. 95% are men so I'll leave you to do the maths."

I don't know, but I am prepared to bet that 95% of them aren't men in the developing world.

OK, Vadark. You are world dictator. What 3 laws would you implement immediately?

Blistory your post is fantastic! Blisteringly (ahem) honest and wonderful.

I continue to be awed and educated by the wise women on this board. Thank you all. I'll try to pass on your wisdom to my children.

If the figures for female on male dv are around the same as male on female dv are they? Yet on average, 2 women per week are killed by their partner or ex partner. The figures for male victims of dv are nowhere near this high. Why the disparity?

Male murder victims are predominantly killed by other men - not women.

Two women per week dead at the hands of their partners. Counting Dead Women by Karen Ingala-Smith

Blistory - your post is fantastic. And couthy. Thank you.

"Yeah, far more cushy to be a man and actually go to war and have your legs blown off than being told to stay at home. Yeah, right!"

Did you not read the bit where she points out that the people who stopped her grandmother fighting, were men?

Men set up institutions and systems where they deliberately excluded women from participating. Armies, navies, air-forces, police-forces and then other non-military professions like miners and industrially-based jobs.

And then woman-hating men have the cheek to blame women for their under-representation in the careers from which men excluded them. Text-book stuff.

Also they refuse to acknoweldge that those institutions and systems, while formally welcoming of women, are in reality still structurally hostile to them - if you are a female member of the American Army for example, you are more likely to be raped by a male American soldier, than you are to be killed by an enemy soldier.

Cushy, eh?

Trufax. I have a good friend who was raped by her superior officer while in the US army.

I think there are so many things men don't think about, because they don't have to. When I woke up raped and beaten one of the worst things was knowing that some people would blame me for being too drunk to properly fight. So I didn't tell, not for years.

In homage to blistory's post:

I was 14 when I was surrounded by a group of schoolboys on my way home from school and had my breasts and bum groped.

I was 17 when a male customer in the shop I worked in smacked my arse. Because I bent over to check a price on something on a low shelf.

I was 17 when my driving instructor pressed his knee against my hand when I was trying to change gear and asked me how my love life was.

I was 18 when my boyfriends best friend attempted to rape me - apparently because I slept with my boyfriend that gave him the right to have sex with me too.

I was 25 when a man at a party I was at followed into the toilet and tried to force himself onto me. Because I agreed with him in a political discussion a group of us were having - apparently that means he can have sex with me in a toilet.

I was 29 when a group of men on a train accosted me, trying to kiss me and grope me.

This is not an exhaustive list. Sexual assault and harassment is part of everyday life for women. [http://www.everydaysexism.com/ The Everyday Sexism Project]]

The Everyday Sexism Project

On the subject of women in the army, there are cases like this:

Anne Marie Ellement who committed suicide after being raped by two colleagues. She was then bullied and ostracised for reporting it.

I was 12 when men first started cat-calling and whistling at me in the street.

I was 15 when a man came up to me in the street at about 11 O'clock at night and invited me to come home with him saying that he could show me a good time and telling me I was a stupid slut for not coming with him.

I was 18 when a man raped me.

I was 22 when my male colleague would cross polite physical boundaries by putting his arms either side of me when he was showing me something on my computer so that I couldn't move without touching him and was trapped and uncomfortable.

I was about 23 when a man put his hand up my skirt as I was walking up the stairs at Piccadilly Circus.

I was about 25 when a London taxi driver (yes, with the knowledge and badge) spent the whole of the journey home, trying to persuade me to show him my breasts. When I didn't and was paying him, he told me I was a lesbian for not doing so.

I was probably about 35 when a man in a car shouted at me that he wanted to fuck me and that I was an ugly cunt. (Consistency is not a woman-hater's strong point.)

Again, not an exhaustive list.

Thing is, I think most women have similar lists like this and if it were any other group behaving like this to any other group, it would be recognised for the structural hatred it is.

"I have a daughter and 3 sons. I am not a feminist - I am an equalist."

Let's see...

"When I fell pg with my DD, her father denied she was his, and refused a DNA test until she was 12 years old, claiming that she wasn't his child. "

Well, from what you've told me so far, either he is an idiot or you gave him reason for doubt.

"The CSA was toothless to force him to take a test, and toothless to force him to financially support our DD."

I can't understand why he wouldn't want to take a test. He sounds more like the idiot now.

"The pg was accidental, yes, as we used not one, not two, but THREE forms of contraception - he wore a condom, I was on the pill. The condom split so I took the MAP. I still ended up pg."

You sound very sensible. Fair play to you and a stroke of bad luck.

"He had known my personal views on termination - that I would only have a termination as a result of rape or if the baby had a condition incompatible with life."

Did you listen to his views before having sex? Not many women do.

"There was NO trickery involved, other than at the point of multiple contraceptive failure, me except id'ing autonomy over my own body and refusing to have a medical procedure that I didn't wish to have."

Fair enough, but did you ever stop to consider HIS views before having sex with him?

"I can't see many men agreeing to have a surgical procedure just because somebody they slept with wanted them to - they would make their OWN choice."

Listen carefully. When a man and a woman have sex, they are BOTH responsible for the potential risk and outcome. They are BOTH open to trickery and accidental pregancy. They BOTH know the risks. When it all goes wrong, I totally agree that the woman has the extremely unfortunate position of undergoing a medical. But there is another side. You see, the man, more often than not, has NO choice in the matter. If YOU want the baby, you (and the Government) EXPECT him to pay for and care for that child for 18 years REGARDLESS of whether he is ready for Fatherhood or not. And if he shows any signs of negativity he is deemed a deadbeat. Whereas if YOU make the choice to terminate based on negative feelings towards Motherhood, everyone supports you. Conversely, if HE wants the child and YOU don't, you go full steam ahead and get an abortion REGARDLESS of his feelings or rights. What I am describing is very, very real.

"Due to this, I will be (and have been, with my DS1, who is 11) teaching my sons that every time they have sex, no matter what contraception they use, there IS a risk of a pregnancy, as NO contraception is 100% failsafe."

You are very wise to do this. You should also educate and advise them about what I just said above because there is a good chance what I am describing could happen.

"He (as my other DS's will be, in time) has been taught that if he does not want to be equally financially, morally and emotionally responsible for a child, then he needs to NOT have sex."

And that applies to girls too. You also need to warn him that he potentially could get screwed over by a woman who has the law on her side when she decides to find another guy and ban your Son from seeing his kids.

"I have taught him that he should ascertain what a potential partner's views on termination are BEFORE he has sex - because that way, HE has choices - if he disagrees with that woman's stance on termination, he can choose NOT to have sex with her."

Yes, good, and I agree. But you'll find it makes little odds because in reality he has NO lawfully bound protection against his choices. Men are NOT supported by the law here. They have NO choice but to follow what the woman wants.

"I have taught him that HE and ONLY he is responsible for his own fertility."

I agree and you're doing the right thing. Wait until he gets screwed by the system and then let me know how you feel!

"I have taught my DD EXACTLY the same things - that NO form of contraception is 100%. That she will be equally financially, morally and emotionally responsible for any child she creates, and if she is not willing to do this, then she should NOT have sex. That if she chooses to have sex, she is choosing to accept that a baby could result from this. That SHE must be upfront and honest with any potential partner about her views on termination. That SHE and ONLY she is responsible for her own fertility. And that she will be equally responsible for any child she creates."

But she has a massive advantage over your Son in that ultimately she has far more choice when the chips are down. E.g. there are abortion pills. And she doesn't even have to tell the Father. How's that as an example of female privilege!

"Isn't THIS the equality the OP and friends are looking for?"

No. Men and boys are getting screwed over left, right and centre and have no social or moral backing and no legal backing either.

"Because anything else would be for a man to be trying to have control over a woman's body, when it is that woman's body to control."

Hey, listen, when a woman entices a man to have sex and gets his seed inside her body and then has FULL choice over the outcome, don't talk to me about control of someone's body!!!!

"Just as no woman can force a man to have a vasectomy, no man can force a woman to have a termination."

Vasectomy is PRE-PREGNANCY control, a bit like the pill. I agree that no woman can make a man have a vasectomy just like no man can MAKE a woman take the pill. You're comparing the wrong things. A decision on termination is a result of POST-PREGNANCY and is a consequence of either or both of these people making a mistake of some sort. Come on, please get the logic right, please.

"Because everybody, man OR woman, has the final say in what happens to THEIR body."

Except for the man whose seed has accidentally just fertilised a woman and then he finds he has no choices and ends up being stigmatised or paying for a child he doesn't want. Where as she......

"So, it follows that a man has all the choices that involve HIS body when it comes to having sex and possibly creating a baby, and a woman has all the choices that involve HER body when it comes to having sex and possibly creating a baby."

Yep, agree. Now move on to when she gets a bun in the oven.

"So a man's choices that involve HIS body are : Whether to have sex or not. Whether to use a condom or not."

Agree.

"A woman's choices that involve HER body are : Whether to have sex or not. Whether to use hormonal contraception or not. Whether to have a termination or not."

Ahha, there we go you see. Did you notice how you sneakily popped the termination decision in with the WOMAN.

"The reason that a man has no say or choice over whether a woman has a termination is because IT IS NOT HIS BODY TO MAKE CHOICES OVER. "

BUT IT'S HIS FREAKIN' BABY IN THERE. THEY BOTH MADE IT. And she only has to pop a pill and she has over 2 months to do this.
www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortion/Pages/How-is-it-performed.aspx

"So men MUST make their choices at the point that they decide to have sex or not (accepting that if they do then there is a possibility of a pregnancy and a baby), and at the point where they decide whether to wear a condom or not (accepting that even if they do, there is a 1/100 chance that it could fail and cause a pregnancy and a baby)."

EXACTLY the same for women.

"The ONLY sure fire, 100% way to NOT create a baby is to...NOT HAVE SEX."

Yes, but that's not an option for the sake of humanity.

"If you choose NOT to remain celibate, then you are accepting the risk that you might create a baby, and end up financially, morally and emotionally responsible for a child for the next 18 years. "

The risk is FAR greater for a man. He has little to zero choice AFTER the accidental pregnancy. She does.

"But it is every man AND woman's choice to take that risk or not."

And we should be educating boys that THEY have fewer choices if they get themselves into that mess. Do you get it yet?

"If you want equality, then don't discriminate between your DC's either way - teach them both exactly the same things, as I have, and drum into them as soon as they are old enough that EVERY sexual encounter could result in a baby, no matter WHAT contraception is used. And that you FULLY expect them, boy or girl, to take a 50% responsibility for childcare, a 50% responsibility for financially providing for that child, a 50% responsibility towards that child's emotional development...basically that they, not or girl, need to make their choices carefully..."

Ok, so when your Son grows up and meets a girl who totally screws him over and gives him no choice, let's see wha your opinion is then.

"Great post, Couthy. Absolutely - the equality is there because each person gets to make the choices involving their own bodies."

I've just debunked that.

Ahha, there we go you see. Did you notice how you sneakily popped the termination decision in with the WOMAN.

The termination decision is with the woman. It is her body.

^And she only has to pop a pill and she has over 2 months to do this.
www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Abortion/Pages/How-is-it-performed.aspx^

Do you advocate forced abortion against a woman's will? Or forced pregnancy against a woman's will? It's the woman's body, it's her decision.

Unless you think women are incubators for babies against their wishes, or that a pregnant women should have a medical procedure forced on her against her wishes, or that women don't have autonomy over their own body - then it is the woman's final decision.

There - we've debunked yours.

He believes men should have control of a woman's body if they impregnate her.

Have any women ever threatened to rape you because of your activism Vadark?

Because men are always threatening to rape feminist activists.

That's the third time I've asked that question.

So women would be within their rights to insist that men have vasectomies? If men can insist that women undergo surgical procedures, I mean.

I was 17 when I received a load of obscene and frightening phone calls from a male who obviously had a lot of information about me - like when I was alone in the house, and saying he should come and keep me company.

I was 17 and in my first job when a group of men in the staff room held up Page3 in front of me and said 'Sabrina, what are you doing here?' and 'you should be modelling for this, getting your tits out for the lads'.

I was 19 when my boyfriend's friend came into my room at university and tried to rape me. He would have done so had my boyfriend not come back.

I was 21 when my partner raped me.

What are YOU going to do about sexual harassment/assault of women vadark?

"When a woman entices a man to have sex and get his seed inside her body...."

Adam, paging Adam from the Garden of Eden, God is looking for you.

"If you choose NOT to remain celibate, then you are accepting the risk that you might create a baby, and end up financially, morally and emotionally responsible for a child for the next 18 years. "

To this, Vadark says: The risk is FAR greater for a man. He has little to zero choice AFTER the accidental pregnancy. She does.

Why is the risk greater for the man?

If men don't want to take the risk, they should take responsibility for contraception

Or get vasectomies.

Or not have PIV sex with fertile women.

Stop whingeing about nature. It makes you sound pathetic and sad.

You don't get to decide what a woman does with her body, even if you've voluntarily deposited some of your genetic material in her body.

Get over it.

It doesn't matter who MADE the baby, it's the woman's body that any procedures to terminate the pregnancy happens to.

If my sons turn out like you, I will be very disappointed in them, as I have brought them up better than that.

Women are not the chattel of men anymore, vadark. We have legal autonomy over what happens to our bodies.