Justice for Men and Boys - Isn't this exactly why we need feminism

[wickeddevil]

Heard Justice for Men and Boys Founder Mike Buccanan on Womens Hour earlier today complaining that men pay 72% of all income tax.
Well isn't that because they have more income?

And instead of complaining about the feminist agenda doesn't it demonstrate why we need it?

Rosabud, your post was spot on.

Thank you. Yes, I know Pan was challenging Mike and that is great to see. It would be even greater if more men would challenge the likes of Mike AND Vadark.

"Oh vadark - read back. We've tried that. You either lack the capacity to understand that the many 'men's issues' you are talking about is not the fault of feminism, or even women."

I don't lack any capacity. Feminism has gone too far. It has tipped the balance such that men are being ignored and disadvantaged. I've never said it was all the fault of women. Show me where I said that. Copy and paste it. Go on. You can't can you, because I never said that. What I have said is that we are ALL to blame and yest despite the power of feminism, you refuse to listen, acknowledge or help. You are selfish, that's why.

"Or you say you don't believe us, as you did when we spoke of male violence, sexual harassment, rape, rape threats."

I said I didn't believe that 1 in 4 women experience "serious" sexual harassment, and that stats can be skewed based on subjective interpretation. Stop making things up.

"Male circumcision is not women's fault"

It is EVERYONE'S FAULT. Feminists support banning female mutilation. Show me where they support ending male mutilation. You simply can't answer any of my questions can you!

"It's not feminism's fault."

You DON'T help everyone. You cherry pick who you help, and it's ALWAYS your own sex and children (mainly girls). You don't care about men or boys. Why not?

"Yes - men pay more taxes because women are paid less and tend to have lower paid jobs, do the childcare and other non-earning work."

And men work longer hours and do more risky, stinky, dangerous jobs that women don't appear to volunteer for. Don't you get it yet?

"Oh of course women already have equality."

Yes, and they have more privileges and a safer life and live longer etc...

"There's no such thing as the pay gap."

Correct. Job for job, women get paid the same as men. You've been indoctrinated with this idea. It's nonsense.

"Men are portrayed naked all the time as being sexually available to women on women's terms in order to sell cars, lipstick, cleaning products - anything really..."

Anyone seen the latest Wink Bingo advert? Diet coke? Magic Mike film?

"WHY SHOULD THAT BE THE JOB OF FEMINISM OR INDEED THE JOB OF WOMEN?

BECAUSE WE SHOULD ALL BE HELPING EACH OTHER. DOH!

Oops, sorry, forgot that feminists only think of themselves!

"Sorry to shout, but having trekked through 16 pages of utter bizarreness and 'lalalaI'mnotlistening' I'm pretty fed up."

So are men.

"Any kind of genital mutilation is terrible."

We agree.

"Why aren't MRAs doing something to raise male gm as a valid issue?"

Because men don't help themselves. It's in their nature. But men have ALWAYS helped women. Have you ever stopped to think.

"If the media are ignoring this as an issue that's not right"

Blimey, we agree again.

"but why is it up to feminism to do something about that?"

BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE A MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO HELP EVERYONE ELSE WHO ARE MORE DISADVANTAGED.

You shouted first.

"Or is it women's fault that men don't organise?"

No, I never said that.

"downright loopy that is?)"

Can you see how downright selfish you all look.

"Work - 17% pay gap."

Longer hours, dirty jobs, stressful, unsociable jobs. Repeat repeat repeat.

"Women more likely to be in low paid work,"

More choices, can't have cake andeat it. Ca't argue with life's biological issues. Safer, part time jobs. Repeat repeat repeat.

"men on average earn more than women for the same work"

Untrue. Show me an example and we'll sue them. It has to be EXACTLY the same job.

"men more likely to be company directors, heads of dept."

More men are work-centred. They also studied and trained for these jobs. And perhaps they might even be better, who knows.

"The glass ceiling still exists and even conservative commentators acknowledge that, only woman-haters don't."

Firstly, I'm not a woman-hater. I happen to care for everyone and I loath the idea of selfishness. Secondly, there is no glass ceiling. It's feminist propaganda. A bit like man-flu - designed to put men down.

"Law - Women get sentenced to prison for longer terms on average than men when they commit the same crime."

Gosh, you are so misinformed. Please google the stats. I have just found so much evidence to show you are wrong. Here's a link for you to read.

www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2002/0423a.html

"Law again - 1 in 4 women are raped or sexually assaulted in their lifetime. 85-90% never report to the police."

Exactly where are you getting these figures from? And what constitutes sexual assault in context of the final stat?

"only 6% see their rapist found guilty"

Listen to me. Rape is very, very bad. It's a difficult area and very sensitive. Convicting someone of rape requires absolute proof and confidence. Your stat can be read mny ways, but in the end it is for the judg to decide based on the facts that are known. I repeat that I DESPISE men that rape and give men a bad name. They make me sick!

"even though fewer than 3-4% are making false allegations"

So do you just want to forget about these men whose lives are ruined by these pathetic excuses of a human being?

"abortion is restricted in Northern Ireland, and in the rest of the UK women have to find 2 doctors prepared to enable them to decide whether they want to carry a pregnancy or not, instead of having the complete freedom to decide for themselves who controls their body"

It's HIS baby as well. Watch this.

"Another health - 1 in 4 women live with chronic domestic violence - that is, more than one attack per year. "

Current stats show that domestic violence committed by women against men is nearly as much as the other way around. What isn't taken into consideration is that women report and men don't. What do you make of that?

"Education - teaching is overwhelmingly dominated by women"

They are probably attracted by the long holidays and they aren't portrayed as perverts when linked with children.

"but if you look at the higher roles, men who go into the profession are overwhelmingly more likely to be head teachers."

What is stopping women from becoming a head teacher? Show me the blockages?

"Yeah you cowardly men, go and lobby outside mosques and synagogues to tell the patriarchs there to stop cutting their boy babies' genitals. "

You have the audacity to show that you really don't care so you! Shame on you.

"You're so fucking brave against women aren't you, but you don't target your pretend anger to where it belongs - boy babies are being cut because of the demands of patriarchal religion, just as girl babies are."

I'm coming on here supporting the fact that cutting babies genitals off is sick, regardless of the reason. And you ramble and swear and blame the "patriarchy" instead of writing something like "yeah, I agree this is a pretty insane practice that should stop and I think feminism could help". You are selfish.

"If women demonstrate against it, they'll just beat us up"

You have demonstrated a million times for stopping cutting female genitals and you never worried about being beaten up!

"It's up to men to stop them instead of demanding that women fight your battles for you."

Hmmm, WW1 and WW2 along with countless other clashes in order to protect and survive spring to mind. Yeah, you're right, men have never fought for their women. Sigh.

"How exactly are we going to get to men and women paying the same amount of income tax?"

Women could volunteer for doing the same types of jobs that men do and join the 95% of work-related deaths group?

"How exactly are we going to get to men and women in relationships having 50/50 shared childcare?"

Give men the same choices that women have, same time off when having a baby, get women studying and training to be competent enough to get into the higher paid jobs such that when the couple have a baby the lower earner (could be the man more so in that case) could stay at home.

"How exactly are we going to convince both sexes that they risk pregnancy every time they have sex? "

Education. Good parenting. Sensible youngsters. Explain to her that she can't always trust him. Explain to him that he can't always trust her. Cuts both ways.

"Answers please?"

Shame I haven't got time to make them longer. If people around here would quit with the shaming tactics and insults we could have a more intelligent conversation.

"Feminism is not the cause of the 'inequalities' you are complaining about - wake up and smell the coffee."

They are only interested in themselves. This thread proves it. They are too deluded to understand the damage they are doing to themselves. Terrible really. Feminism could have been so powerful. What a shame.

"Still trying to get women to do all the work for you?"

It's quite obvious that you have no intentions of lifting a finger for a men. You are far too self-centred.

"Let Toys Be Toys - For Girls and Boys It's a campaign organised by MNetters, arguing against gender stereotyping of toys in high street shops."

Show me the posts from feminists (who supposedly despise violence against children) are outraged at men in their pants beating the crap out of each other with chainsaws and sledge hammers being shown on the TV at family viewing time and then being promoted in Tesco and Asda stores etc. as toys.

Switch the sexes. Double standard. I thought feminists didn't like double standards, or is that only when it suits them?

For the record I implied (my fault for not spelling it out, I suppose) that mens rights will improve as a consequence of feminism, not that feminists are specifically campaigning for men's rights (though many campaigns such as 'Let Toys be Toys' are for both genders equally).

You have the audacity to demand links from me...can you provide any links to anything that is not opinion? On the subject of prostate vs. breast cancer, you wanted links for summat or other from me, well I DEMAND links to a breakdown of prevalence, seriousness, treatment and cost to the NHS of female vs. male cancers and I want undisputed proof, in links, that women are favoured over men!

And I want proof, in links that men fought wars at the behest of women, for the sole benefit of women. And proof, in links, that every single woman of the time ducked out of active service (hint: you won't find any because men wouldn't let them fight). And a detailed analysis of how women instigate and control all wars and who fights them.

And I want the finest wines known to man, and I want them NOW.

That last one was a joke, but if you're buying (I've heard from an MRA that ALL women expect ALL men to buy the drinks/dinner)...

And you are helping women and girls?

Show me where.

You want us to provide evidence and links and quotes and spend our time proving stuff to you. But you are not prepared to back up any one of your assertions with anything other than YouTube videos and letters to the telegraph.

Your posts make you sound like you are three stops short of Dagenham, frankly.

My post was to vadark btw

Unbelievable.

"The second is like Vadark who, like all of us, has been brought up in the patriarchy and, like many, has huge difficulty understanding how male privilege is fundamental to almost everything we experience."

Rosabud, what a lovely long post of complete and utter tosh. Tell me what privilege I have that you don't. Tell me what you can't do in life that I can. List them.

"The Vadark-like MRA is not well educated and so is not used to analytical or critical thinking which is vital for following a debate on this issue."

I thought long and hard before answering this, but I will. I would bet my entire wealth that I have more qualifications than you. Shame we can't prove it. Don't make silly comments.

"It does not matter how many times feminists patiently try and explain things to MRAs like Vadark (and 16 pages is a lot of patience), he simply has not got the skills required to grasp the argument, or even the main point."

What? That, feminists are not in the remotest bit interested in helping men and boys due to their deeply embedded roots of selfishness?

"To someone like Vadark, feminists just look like people who are trying to take away from him everything that he has ever held as common sense and right (ie all the fundamental male privileges such as entltlement to sex"

What rights to sex do I have that you don't? You're being ridiculous.

"He takes their explanations personally, he feels backed into a corner and angry."

Nope, I'm engaging with you to make you understand that there are men and boys out there with issues that YOU choose to ignore! Besides, I have seen plenty of angry feminists. Haven't you?

"The Vadark-like MRA then looks around and sees Mike, bless him. "

Oooo, not only do we have sarcasm, insults and shaming tactics, we now have patronisation and condescension. Clever.

"I think it would be helpful if the vast majority of educated men who do not agree with Mike could voice that more often to men like Vadark. The women on the thread tended to have more patience and be prepared to debate with Vadark for longer than the men did. Somewhat ironically."

Are you conceding to the fact tha you need a man's help! Shock. Horror! Bring on the men then. Bring on the White Knights who aren't interested in the issues that boys face. Bring them on and let's have a sensible debate without these pathetic tactics that the people around here try to use in their defense. And remember, not once have I disagreed or fought opinions regarding supporting women's rights. I'm not that selfish as a human being. I support everyone and will trounce ANYBODY who ignores a particular group based on gender, race etc. Bring them on.

"And, the final irony, after 16 pages of getting nowhere with Vadark, many finally have to admit that they can't go on and will now be ignoring him"

They're not ignoring ME you fool. They're ignoring men and boys. Half our population!

"Mike thinks that women do not make up 50% of MPs, Boardroom posts, high court judges etc because they just don't want to"

He's right, many women pursue other life choices.

"It's not 1000 years of discrimination - oh no, not at all."

Millions of men's lives lost building our civilisation and protecting their families at their own expense in order to grow civilisation, makes your statement pale into insignificance.

You only see and hear what you WANT to hear.

"Remember that other thread on that subject? It did not end well because the men here, even though they claimed to have a fair bit of sympathy with feminist issues (as they have daughter etc) seemed very reluctant to speak out and argue against men like Mike & vadark. They had no problems arguing with women though."

Doesn't that little gem of knowledge speak volumes to you. Can't you see that your feminist ideology doesn't work unless you include ALL human beings instead of selectively eliminating half the freaking population! Can't you see that even those White Knights of yesteryear (unfortunately they still exist) are starting to move out of nappies into training pants and seeing the truth!

They have no robust arguments anymore. Why? Because the pendulum has swung the other way and I'm trying nicely to warn you that feminism is going to face a severe backlash if you don't pull your act together. You could have sooooo much power but you need the logic and selflessness to go with it.

"To be fair, Pan was challenging Mike quite a lot in the first third of this thread."

And then realised that he was onto a loser...

"Thank you. Yes, I know Pan was challenging Mike and that is great to see. It would be even greater if more men would challenge the likes of Mike AND Vadark."

They're reading. Bring them on. For every fact they present. I will present 20.

""

You are the ones hanging yourselves. Mike has given plenty of statistical evidence and you have either ignored it, denied it or applied shaming tactics and insults.

You have also failed to show any examples of things that block women from having similar choices to men or supply lists of things that give me more privilege than you. You have failed miserably.

""

Yep, what else can you say as a feminist? I suppose it's part of your tactic to ignore men. It just proves my point that you are utterly incapable of having any compassion whatsoever for anything other than your own gender.

Whereas men....they have and will ALWAYS support you. The majority, that is.

"I DEMAND links to a breakdown of prevalence, seriousness, treatment and cost to the NHS of female vs. male cancers and I want undisputed proof, in links, that women are favoured over men!"

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20875488

"*"How exactly are we going to get to men and women paying the same amount of income tax?"

Women could volunteer for doing the same types of jobs that men do and join the 95% of work-related deaths group?"*

OK, I'll bite. What were all these incredibly highly paid (so incredibly highly taxed) jobs that men do that women won't because they are too dangerous?