Justice for Men and Boys - Isn't this exactly why we need feminism

[wickeddevil]

Heard Justice for Men and Boys Founder Mike Buccanan on Womens Hour earlier today complaining that men pay 72% of all income tax.
Well isn't that because they have more income?

And instead of complaining about the feminist agenda doesn't it demonstrate why we need it?

'Feminism has not finished (barely even begun in some places). When it has progressed further'...

No, it won't progress further, not in the same way. Too many men and women are beginning to realise the damage that feminism has caused, it cannot continue under the radar like it has been.

"Vadark : "Doh, women already have equality".

Woah, woah, woah....I'm out. Mistakenly thought it had some intelligence."

Give me a list of women's inequalities and lack of rights. Talk about education, law, health, media, workplace....anything you like.

Or would you prefer to resort to the far simpler shaming and insult tactics.

Goodbye.

Oh vadark - read back. We've tried that. You either lack the capacity to understand that the many 'men's issues' you are talking about is not the fault of feminism, or even women. Or you say you don't believe us, as you did when we spoke of male violence, sexual harassment, rape, rape threats.

Male circumcision is not women's fault. It's not feminism's fault. The issues Mike B is talking about - suicide rates in men, women paying less taxes are not the fault of feminism. In fact, the closing of the pay gap between men and women would begin to sort ou the 'men paying most of the taxes' thing. Yes - men pay more taxes because women are paid less and tend to have lower paid jobs, do the childcare and other non-earning work.

Oh of course women already have equality.

50% of our judges, lawyers, CEO's, MP's, newspaper editors, TV producers, rape victims, victims of DV, in fact everything everywhere, are women.

There's no such thing as the pay gap.

1 in 4 women aren't sexually assaulted at some point in their lives by men.

Men don't have 15 hours more leisure time per week because women are doing unpaid labour in the home.

Men are portrayed naked all the time as being sexually available to women on women's terms in order to sell cars, lipstick, cleaning products - anything really...

Women and men have equal access to the resources of the earth and society is set up to enable both to function equally well with equal access to all resources.

Oh hang on...

Try the Bechdel test:

Are there 2 women in the film?

Do they have a conversation with each other?

Is it about something other than a man?

Most films fail.

Try it with men. Actually, don't bother, it's like saying see whether you can breathe.

Equal portrayal? Don't make me laugh.

Oh dear Mike/Vadark. Have you gone without responding to my post, the one which explains the disparity in male/female tax revenue?

There was me thinking you might want to engage in some fact-based discussion.

However I'm not surprised. Or disappointed .

Off you go.

I know I shouldn't feed him but really...

"Show me where the media or feminism has promoted raising this as a valid issue as much as that of female mutilation."

WHY SHOULD THAT BE THE JOB OF FEMINISM OR INDEED THE JOB OF WOMEN? Sorry to shout, but having trekked through 16 pages of utter bizarreness and 'lalalaI'mnotlistening' I'm pretty fed up.

Any kind of genital mutilation is terrible. Why aren't MRAs doing something to raise male gm as a valid issue? If the media are ignoring this as an issue that's not right, but why is it up to feminism to do something about that?

Or is it women's fault that men don't organise? (and if you actually believe that's the case, why? Seriously, can you not see how downright loopy that is?)

Put it this way, would you expect the Conservative party to organise on the Labour party's behalf and give a platform to them at every event of theirs?

Aargh. I'm off to read about wanking in Hull....

Basil, you sound like a robot. Although you've answered the equality question...madly unrealistic as it is.

I'm too tired to answer the rest, but as for the Bedewhatsit film thing you and yours keep banging on about, seriously....get a hobby (not watching fims though).

Night.

Work - 17% pay gap. Women more likely to be in low paid work, men on average earn more than women for the same work, men more likely to be company directors, heads of dept. The glass ceiling still exists and even conservative commentators acknowledge that, only woman-haters don't.

Law - Women get sentenced to prison for longer terms on average than men when they commit the same crime.

Law again - 1 in 4 women are raped or sexually assaulted in their lifetime. 85-90% never report to the police. Those who do, mostly don't see their cases taken to court, only 6% see their rapist found guilty even though fewer than 3-4% are making false allegations. Yet the whole debate centres around false allegations.

Health - abortion is restricted in Northern Ireland, and in the rest of the UK women have to find 2 doctors prepared to enable them to decide whether they want to carry a pregnancy or not, instead of having the complete freedom to decide for themselves who controls their body.

Another health - 1 in 4 women live with chronic domestic violence - that is, more than one attack per year.

Media - I've mentioned the Bechdel test already.

Education - teaching is overwhelmingly dominated by women but if you look at the higher roles, men who go into the profession are overwhelmingly more likely to be head teachers. Men are disproportionately more likely to be HT's.

Off to bed now.

The Hull thread is the best

Yeah you cowardly men, go and lobby outside mosques and synagogues to tell the patriarchs there to stop cutting their boy babies' genitals.

You're so fucking brave against women aren't you, but you don't target your pretend anger to where it belongs - boy babies are being cut because of the demands of patriarchal religion, just as girl babies are.

Do something about it won't you. If women demonstrate against it, they'll just beat us up, what with being violent patriarchs. It's up to men to stop them instead of demanding that women fight your battles for you.

I'd rather sound like a robot than a nobber SF

You failed then.

Definitely night this time.

you don't target your pretend anger to where it belongs - boy babies are being cut because of the demands of patriarchal religion, just as girl babies are.

Aint that the truth. Patriarchal religion. Women don't tend to get much of a say. But women are such an easier target aren't they? Especially when your agenda is keeping male privilege and keeping women in their place.

Women - you can't just campaign on your issues you know, you must campaign on our issues as well. And get me a sandwich.

Mike's not been back. He's probably lost interest now he realises he can't advertise his book here.

Maybe he could do go get me a sandwich as a song? Maybe try and get through to us wimmin via music?

He could start a band. Mike and the MRAs has quite a ring to it.

Ladies, good evening. Please excuse my absence, but the fight against misandry gives me little time to pop in here. Have I missed anything? Vadark seems to have been putting up a sterling fight against some rather sillly opposition.

Mike Buchanan

JUSTICE FOR MEN & BOYS
(and the women who love them)

"Rather silly"

Yes, I'm sure the fight against the wimmin gives you little time for anything else, you poor dear. :o

How exactly are we going to get to men and women paying the same amount of income tax?

How exactly are we going to get to men and women in relationships having 50/50 shared childcare?

How exactly are we going to convince both sexes that they risk pregnancy every time they have sex?

Answers please?

Feminism is not the cause of the 'inequalities' you are complaining about - wake up and smell the coffee.

Still trying to get women to do all the work for you?

This thread highlights beautifully the flaws in your arguments.

MEH

Vadark: When did you challenge the cult? Do you condone wrestling toys being sold in toy stores?

You might be interested in this, then:

Let Toys Be Toys - For Girls and Boys It's a campaign organised by MNetters, arguing against gender stereotyping of toys in high street shops.

And just so you know - copying and pasting people's posts and putting an unfounded silly comment after each sentence (eg. "I don't believe you" when provided with accepted statistics about sexual assault) doesn't constitute a valid argument.

There is a Jeckyll and Hyde aspect to this thread which highlights why feminism is such a difficult uphill struggle. I think there seems to be 2 types of MRA. The first is like Mike, clearly educated and able to write books and clearly disliking feminism because he sees any equality for women as taking away some equality for men. Because he does not want to admit that to himself, he justifies it by observing the world in a very one-sided way and skews any evidence he comes across to support this one-sided view in his books etc. The second is like Vadark who, like all of us, has been brought up in the patriarchy and, like many, has huge difficulty understanding how male privilege is fundamental to almost everything we experience. The Vadark-like MRA is not well educated and so is not used to analytical or critical thinking which is vital for following a debate on this issue. It does not matter how many times feminists patiently try and explain things to MRAs like Vadark (and 16 pages is a lot of patience), he simply has not got the skills required to grasp the argument, or even the main point. To someone like Vadark, feminists just look like people who are trying to take away from him everything that he has ever held as common sense and right (ie all the fundamental male privileges such as entltlement to sex, domestic caring etc) and, when he disagrees in bewilderment, they make him feel "demonised" and he is anxious to explain that he is not horrible, they are in the wrong. He takes their explanations personally, he feels backed into a corner and angry. The Vadark-like MRA then looks around and sees Mike, bless him. waving his book and telling him that it is all OK , that he has worked it all out and has evidence and everything, that Vadark's world is not about to be tipped upside down, in fact, it is true that feminisnts are the horrible vampire ones and Vadark, and the status quo, have been right all along.

The difficulty for feminism is reaching and persuding Vadark without the interference of Mike whilst at the same time battling against Mike. I think it would be helpful if the vast majority of educated men who do not agree with Mike could voice that more often to men like Vadark. The women on the thread tended to have more patience and be prepared to debate with Vadark for longer than the men did. Somewhat ironically.

And, the final irony, after 16 pages of getting nowehre with Vadark, many finally have to admit that they can't go on and will now be ignoring him and they are accused of silencing him! I don't think allowing someone to go on and on for 16 pages is silencing them.

Mike thinks that women do not make up 50% of MPs, Boardroom posts, high court judges etc because they just don't want to. It's not 1000 years of discrimination - oh no, not at all.

Here's Mike being pwned by the wonderful Laura Bates of the Everyday Sexism Project:

BBC Interview

I think it would be helpful if the vast majority of educated men who do not agree with Mike could voice that more often to men like Vadark.

YY to that. Remember that other thread on that subject? It did not end well because the men here, even though they claimed to have a fair bit of sympathy with feminist issues (as they have daughter etc) seemed very reluctant to speak out and argue against men like Mike & vadark. They had no problems arguing with women though.

To be fair, Pan was challenging Mike quite a lot in the first third of this thread.