UKIP second in Eastleigh...anyone from Eastleigh care to comment?

[SequinsOfEvents]

Bit tongue in cheek but wowsers! 11,000 votes! Crikey!

I am living abroad at the moment and am pleased to be! Can't come home with current political situation....how depressing

[suburbophobe]

I find them creepy. UKIP.

England getting more insular.

Too many people put too much belief into the crap that the Daily Mail put out every day. So biased!!

It's like Germany in the 30's all over again. "Yes, let's find a scapegoat and I am perfect".

[out2lunch]

oooh interesting thread
i am a second generation half polish voter from eastleigh.i was quite surprised as thought there would be more of a swing away from lib dems due to chris huhne's court case/lying and the coalition with the conservatives but, having said that the lib dems do work hard in the area keeping in touch all year round.their candidate was the only local resident - my son was in the same class at school as his daughter.

my father voted for ukip as a protest pure and simple - he wasn't really aware of their policies.i voted for labour as a hope for change - i couldn't vote lib dem again due to the coalition or the cons and i felt ukip was a vote for another right wing party.

[Abitwobblynow]

Sequins:

"What I don't understand are the previous immigrants now passing comment on the next wave. You can't seriously oppose other people coming to the same country you did looking for opportunities to better themselves just as you did 10, 20 or 30 years ago."

that is three if not four self-regarding non-sequiters wrapped in one sentence! WHY are lefties so pleased with their own Good Intentions?!

1. you assume immigration to be an inherent good. Who told you immigration is an inherent good and why have you accepted that? What empirical and theoretical grounds do you have, for assuming that immigration is an inherent good?
   

What about, for instance, an alternative: if the Thatcher government in the 80s had bitten on the demographic bullet (I went to a lecture by Gavyn Davies [then the head of Goldman Sachs] where they KNEW then the population was ageing), and announced: from henceforth, all professionally qualified married couples who produce four or more children will go tax free - or something. Now, that kicks a couple of sacred cows already, the lefties would have screamed and shrieked about cruelty evil and elitism -
but what would it have done to address the current problem????

(by the way - what is the current dilemma Sequins? Can you define it?].

1. assumption number two: you are assuming that the UK has infinite capacity in terms of infrastructure, resources, space and welfare. It doesn't. It really, really doesn't.
   

ALL of the political parties KNOW that the welfare state which includes the NHS is not sustainable. They are just too scared to tell you - because the level of debate in this country is such that you just vote for the other people who lie to you and assure you they won't touch it and the NHS.

1. Conflating the past with the present: historically, there was a huge shortage of labour post-war. So this country NEEDED bus conductors, construction workers, railway workers and other economic group C bodies - but they don't need them now. What IS needed are skilled professionals and entepreneurs. So why didn't we grow our own and raise the birth rate?
   

1. 'oh lordy, here come the fat slags!' [apparently Viz magazine is the most piercing commentary on the underclass, it is just not noticed because it is in cartoon form] - why are unproductive Sharon and Tracy sitting in ghettos where the government has put them on council estates, whilst immigrants are imported to pick and pack our produce? Why can't people work and be topped up with benefits?
   

1. New Labour incompetent deluded clowns catastrophically reversed the Conservative laws on marriage from the Asian sub-continent, thereby 'opening the pipeline from Pakistan'. It isn't gearing-up-to-be-a-world-power India that are taking advantage of this - it is the rapidly failing state Pakistan. Exactly what level of education do these people have? Illiterate and unable to speak English? Why do we want the people of a failing state, and why do we owe them anything?
   

1. You need to wake up. It is my African acquaintances' (especially the low paid and unemployed) dearest wish to get to Britain. Do you understand that they are educated to Grade 3 or 4 like the Pakistani cousins and believe in witchcraft? (Adam in the Thames) Do you understand that African children are traded like commodities because of the levels of child benefits they get? (Victoria Climbie).
   

7 Which population group of UK is now producing the most babies? What is the eventual impact of this?


I am waiting for the usual screaming and shrieking and accusations of right-wing evil because I have told a few blunt truths. But please think these things through before spouting well-meaning platitudes! Every choice - even caring sharing well-meaning ones - have consequences!

I don't WANT my politicians to be handsome with lovely smiles and speak in soothing bromides (yes, that is you, Tony, and you Nick and you Call-me-Dave). I want them to do what is right, no matter how difficult, for the future long-term well being of this country. The last person to speak difficult truths and insist on implementing them, was Margaret Thatcher.

We get who we vote for! Honestly, how many people have considered the above and the disastrous ideologies that result in all these unintended consequences? Why has Europe not addressed it's declining birth rate, and the economic stresses that have brought it about (which they are now 'solving' with immigration)? Europe generously and caringly 'aids' Palestine so that Palestinians have 10 or more children per family but ignore their own declining birth rate - It's stupid!

Don't people think about history, the lessons of history and long term outcomes?

No, they don't. I am no longer sure democracy is a good idea - most people aren't clever enough to have the vote. The older I get, the more Plato's oligarchy makes sense, really.

[zamantha]

Dear helenmumsnet - back down thread,

I understand debate needs to happen but the voice that says I feel really uncomfortable with the tone of Farage is a strong voice - I'm a white, middle class from working class roots leftie. My parents - daily mail readers are screaming about immigration - us lefties feel angry but are not screaming like Daily mail - our anger will come out on threads like this.

Immigration is an issue but Farage does come across as a schmoozy nationalist - I'm uncomfortable with nationalism.

[vesela]

There are 300,000 Germans living in the UK. How come no one ever lays into them? And those 123,000 French people?
www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jan/26/europe-population-who-lives-where

[claig]

Isn't that obvious? Because very few of them are on benefits and very few of them are competing for low paid jobs, which is the same for English people in Germany and France.

[claig]

'There are 300,000 Germans living in the UK. How come no one ever lays into them? And those 123,000 French people?'

And that just goes to show that British people are not anti foreigners, but the concern about immigration is essentially economic. The people from Eastern Europe are white, so it is not about race, but about the economic impact.

[vesela]

claig - have you got the data relating to numbers of Germans on benefits and numbers of Poles on benefits?

It may not be about race, but it's about trying to feel superior to Polish people.

[claig]

Of course it is not about feeling superior to Polish people. That is a misunderstanding of the reasons why UKIP increased their vote so substantially in Eastleigh.

If lots of Germans were on benefits or competing for low paid jobs, the newspapers and UKIP would be telling us.

[TheFallenNinja]

I don't think that Eastleigh is a litmus test for much really, the bigger issue is turnout.

This mid term blip is precisely that.

[SequinsOfEvents]

Wobbly - I think I made my feelings very clear quite some time ago.....I am over it. Please stop directing everything at me now. I told you, I started a much more inflammatory thread than I really meant to but I am HONESTLY OVER IT! Please stop referring to my earlier posts...they've been commented on, move on

Your post is long very informed and informative and I have never pretended to know everything there is to know about immigration. I have already said I would certainly consider immigration in a different way (less idealistically?) from this thread but the point of this was about UKIP really I'd say and what a strong showing in Eastleigh might indicate. Are they or aren't they accepted as seen as mainstream?

Anyway - I shall leave you to it - argue with/against somebody else now please

Still in Discussions of the Day - so fame awaits you Wobbly

[zamantha]

Let us hope UKIP are not mainstream - please no!

His anti-European stance is so inward looking. I do hope tories don't feel they have got to please these ukip protestor votes.

For me immigration is great, had a whole host of fab cleaners and builders/decorators from Eastern Europe have been some of best skilled workforce for my dad's business. Problem is if you are a labourer or a waitress, you may feel less pleased as the pressure on minimum/lower wages is to spiral downwards for Brits. Fewer jobs more workforce - market dictates.

Why should those at top enjoy upward mobility while others see a decrease in living standards? I can see how this troubles Daily mail, worlking class people.

I , however, don't want to discriminate and feel for our poorer Europeans but it is tough on certain sections of society that we have had a rapid influx of immigrants.

Working within Europe, for all to benefit, is the answer - perhaps govts do have to do tough deals now.

[BIWI]

I just wonder, all of those people who talk about immigration being such a big issue, if any of them have any idea how many people we are actually talking about?

Would anyone care to guess at how many people, in the year to June 2012, immigrated to Britain, and how many emigrated from Britain? And therefore what the net figure is?

Go on - without Googling ...

[Fillyjonk75]

No, they aren't a force to be reckoned with in terms of winning seats. They are enough of a force to thoroughly piss off the Tories and maybe let Labour in in marginal seats, thereby scoring an own goal by letting the party into power whose agenda is most different from theirs, thereby pissing off UKIP and their supporters. So it's a win win.

Don't forget lots of countries not very far from these shores have a significant far right presence. At least most of UKIP are only closet racists, they aren't the Front National.

[alemci]

Yes wobbly the people trafficking is a real concern. I went to an event about is and a police officer came to talk to people about it. The people are seen as a commodity and even if they go back to their country they are still in so much danger. This could get worse in 2013 if there is more movement from eastern Europe as alot of the trafficked people are coming in from there.

also alot of chocolate products apart from fair trade are being produced by child slaves on the ivory coast who get paid nothing.

It was quite shocking.

you talk alot of sense and none of the mainstream parties are listening to the genuine concerns of their constituents.

[SequinsOfEvents]

I think I feel very similarly to you zamantha but not sure I have explained myself very well! You did a better job!

No idea BIWI - have you googled in preparation?!?!? Tell me, go on, tell me!

[BIWI]

I saw some figures reported recently, and this thread reminded me of them.

This is the bit that stuck in my mind:

^"Overall, the level of immigration to Britain fell from 589,000 to 515,000 over the year to June 2012, while emigration from Britain remained broadly stable with a rise of only 10,000 to 352,000 going to live abroad for more than 12 months.

The difference between the level of immigration at 515,000 and emigration at 352,000 gives the net migration figure of 163,000."^

Article here

[Talkinpeace]

BIWI
Speaking as a first generation economic migrant ......
the UK government has absolutely no idea how many foreigners live in the UK because the ones (like me) with "Indefinite Leave to Remain" have never been counted.
The first public guess, about 5 years ago was 250,000 - until the US Embassy pointed out that it had more than that number of registered voters resident here!!
THe current estimate is around the 2,000,000 mark
BUT
because most of us with ILR are in work, we are invisible to UKIP
(who actually asked me once if I thought immigrants should be sent home)

[BIWI]

Outrageous - off with your head!

[indahouse]

Why on Earth does everyone assume Poles come here for the benefits? Because of the misleading DM headlines rambling about Child Benefit and quoting figures rather than ratios no doubt. The hard facts is that very few Eastern Europeans claim benefits. They are working their elbows off to keep this country running.

No one has any idea how to wean hundreds of thousands of Brits off the benefits without causing outrage and DM being full of stories about starving children. No unskilled job will be more attractive than security of life time benefits. Topping up wages with tax credits isn't helping much.

If there were no migrants here, there would probably be hardly any British products in stores and everybody would have to cook their own meals. Doesn't sound bad, but also without all the extra people producing and buying stuff economy would be in far, far deeper shit than is now.

The huge problem is there's no debate based on facts, but it's all about resentments and anecdotal evidence from DM. There's so much nonsense on this thread..

I would like to live in a world where people are blind to race and nationality and just see human beings. I'm overjoyed that my own country is becoming more attractive to migrants and streets are full of people talking in different languages. There were no foreigners here for decades because people blamed all their woes on them and voted NSDAP.

[claig]

'Why on Earth does everyone assume Poles come here for the benefits?'

Agree indahouse, Poles come here to work not for benefits and I think very few will be on benefits.

[vesela]

Hear hear, indahouse.

There are something like 38,000 non-British EU citizens claiming JSA, of which 13,000 are from the accession countries. Of course that leaves out things like housing benefit and child benefit, but why shouldn't other EU citizens claim those, if British people can?

[vesela]

HillBilly76 - why is having streets full of people speaking only English a good thing?

Britain has always been full of people speaking different languages.

[vesela]

Not that it was particularly peaceful - there were periodic anti-foreigner riots. In Canterbury and Sandwich a third of the population in the late 16th century was foreign, in London about a tenth. After the Huguenots came, they alone made up about 5% of London's population, and there were complaints that there wasn't enough English spoken in the streets etc. Then there were the 300,000 Jewish immigrants who came in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.