UKIP second in Eastleigh...anyone from Eastleigh care to comment?

[SequinsOfEvents]

Bit tongue in cheek but wowsers! 11,000 votes! Crikey!

I am living abroad at the moment and am pleased to be! Can't come home with current political situation....how depressing

[Tansie]

Q: vesela "I'm British, we live in another EU country and from this year my daughter's going to be in the state school system here. Are we doing something wrong? Should I have stayed in my own country?"

If you and/or your partner are working, if you are paying your taxes, if your sole reasons for being in that country wasn't to benefit from a better funded social system than the one you had in the UK, i.e if you're putting in at least as much as you're taking out, then, no, I am sure you are a welcome, contributory, involved person in your community.

Using the UK- or any education system/public health services etc whilst choosing to live on welfare in council paid for accommodation, having deliberately emigrated here with the sole and express intention of doing just that is freeloading. Earning a minimum wage, but still calculatingly importing your entire family to have the shortfall in provision filled by the state, is freeloading.

There is nothing sacrosanct about 'education' that makes using it without contributing anything worthy of special consideration.

Q: Sequin "I am sure we will come back one day and pay our way to support ourselves and others less fortunate than us". That's good- just don't go assuming any of your taxes you pay will still be available to 'support you' should you need them if they've already been spent on welfare etc for mass, unlimited immigration!

FWIW I don't consider UKIP racist at all. They are merely putting voice to concerns a lot of people are feeling. I personally don't care if you're white, black or rainbow striped; Christian, animist or 'of no faith'. Come on in- providing that you have the ability and desire to very quickly become an involved, committed, contributory member of society, benefitting from the Rights afforded you here but also being 'made' to accept your responsibilities.

Where I live (in a leafy end of Eastleigh!) of the 4 houses I can see from my front window, here, 3 are lived in by 'incomers' or immigrants, if you like. None of the people are WASPs. But every morning, a string of cars pull out containing the working adults of the family, off to their professional jobs, their children come out and join mine to walk up to the school bus together. They all own their houses, they all own their BMWs (they're better off than us! ). No, we're not all popping into each other houses but we pass the time of day (which is one reason why I know they're concerned about Romania!), we lend lawn mowers.

I am not advocating this MC 'utopia' as 'the way to go' but it is an illustration of how we all get along just fine, regardless of race, colour or faith- why? Because we're all on the same page socially. They have 'bought into' the social contract (and possibly are far less likely to call on the public purse in times of need than I might be!- family pride, family pulling together to tide that person over etc) same as I have.

So this is not a racist issue, it is an issue of economy and straight forward 'What's fair'.

Final point: Who can blame a Romanian Roma from firing up the Trabant and setting off westwards, come the day??!

[AmberLeaf]

Where did I say I thought people from another country wouldn't be racist?

I was talking about people born in this country of immigrant parents, who seem to have forgotten that their own parents faced the same kind of hostility.

I haven't suggested that black/brown/whatever people aren't allowed to complain about immigration.

But the notion that people only complain about immigration in times of austerity is bollocks. The whole thing of 'not enough jobs/education/housing to go around is a reason, but it isn't the only reason at all.

Adults born in this country of immigrant parents should know this more than anyone.

That is what I find stupid.

Some people are just racist and/or xenophobic.

[niceguy2]

What I don't understand are the previous immigrants now passing comment on the next wave. You can't seriously oppose other people coming to the same country you did looking for opportunities to better themselves just as you did 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

Of course it's not the immigrant's fault. Virtually in all cases they come because they want to work hard and build a nice life for themselves and their families. Noone can blame them for that.

In many countries there are little opportunities, REAL poverty, repression and little/no healthcare. The UK with it's tolerant multicultural society, large economy, decent healthcare, police and comprehensive welfare system is like comparing night & day.

But the UK is struggling to cope with the sheer numbers of immigrants. There are areas which we do need more immigrants. Skilled jobs for example such as IT consultants. We want to attract and keep those sorts. But we have plenty of people who can work in Costa Coffee. As others have mentioned we have a shortage of resources which will be made worse by uncontrolled migration.

Long term we do need immigration but it has to be targeted and controlled.

That doesn't make me racist nor does it make me a hypocrite because I was lucky enough to live here in the past. It just makes me a person who is putting the needs of the UK above those from another country. Just like any other UK citizen should.

[SequinsOfEvents]

Tansie, I've never used my tax monies to support me before and never begrudged them supporting others...I guess your point that I might mind when I get told (repeatedly by the media and other sources) that they're going to immigrants who possibly moved for a better social safety net or the age-old "benefit scrounger" (those so-reviled and publicised generations of families on benefits) and therefore there's nothing left for me. So to clear it up, I'm happy enough for them to support a welfare state however (large) it looks. It's better than the alternative as far as I can see. I am simplifying here but am getting a little peeved at everything I say, in as well meaning a fashion as I can, being taken as a stick to beat me and my views with! It's boring now. I get it - I'm idealistic but leave me be and I'll leave you in leafy Eastleigh.

This WHOLE thread boils down to two things for me - tightening immigration controls in the UK (in line with other countries if you like) and whether or not you appear to be racist when you say that.

And UKIP - whether or not you consider UKIP a party with a certain political slant that can now be hidden behind economic policy or a party with a valid point regardless of previous held views regarding said party. Each to their own on that I think.

Nobody will ever agree I guess so let's call it a day (please!)

I think everyone seems to agree that racism is bad so huzzah to that!

G'night all - it's late here

[slug]

Interesting reaction from the Conservative candidate.

Would it be wrong of me to say I really like her coat?

[Tansie]

Got no time for the woman because a) she's Tory candidate, and b) because of the ridiculously ill-advised things she said about her apparently G&T primary schooler oh, and c) because she reminds me of this woman! and maybe even <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/12/07/hanson_narrowweb__300x478,0.jpg&imgrefurl=www.theage.com.au/news/national/hanson-a-bloodsucker-brown/2006/12/07/1165081058437.html?page%3Dfullpage&h=284&w=178&sz=1&tbnid=2QdSscQLwiSMmM:&tbnh=186&tbnw=116&zoom=1&usg=__di00-4Z_RxCLbF3xulxOUmEjmjs=&docid=QEFnzpneAYG-0M&itg=1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CtYwUcuCK4mJ4ATe4IAY&sqi=2&ved=0CHkQ_B0wCg" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Pauline Hanson of Australia - I can hardly blame her for not wanting to address that scrum!

[slug]

On a more serious note, I do think UKIP are a bit racist. I will cheerfully admit that I have only anecdotal data for that.

The thing is, like tansie's DH, I'm an immigrant (though I don't come from the country with the White Australia policy or Pauline Hanson ). I was canvassed fairly hard by UKIP in the last election. It's amazing what crap they come out with when they think you are a middle class English person. I'm white you see, and I can put on a fairly convincing Sarf London accent when it suits me. It's so much fun to watch them backpedal frantically when I point out, actually, I'm an immigrant. I usually get some spluttered guff about being the right sort of immigrant. Given that I don't tell them what I do for a job, I can only assume this is because of my perceived middle class exterior.

[SequinsOfEvents]

Oh BeJeezus! We are in DISCUSSIONS OF THE DAY! Have we been there long? Might explain the traffic.....

I really should be in bed and can't believe I'm so excited about this especially as I'm not convinced I come out of this very well.....not sure this is very me and now I'm in the DISCUSSIONS OF THE DAY!!!

Anyway.......and breathe........I tend to agree with you slug re: UKIP but my anecdotal stuff is all second hand so I didn't mention any of it before. Plus I did start to think that perhaps, as all the other posters were talking so differently to my thoughts re: UKIP, I must be outdated and their approach must really have changed (more mainstream/acceptable to the voter, less openly rightwing). I'm not sure I really felt they could change that much - as referred to above....we will never all agree on that I guess.

However, and this is the really important thing, I disagree re Maria's coat!

[Talkinpeace]

PLEASE do not link Thornden School to the Eastleigh by-election.
It is in the Chandlers Ford Constituency.
Here is the map of the Eastleigh Constituency
www.allthatsleft.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Eastleigh-map.png

Labour lost their votes when Pirelli and the Railway closed.
Conservative will always do well in Hamble and the villages
but the Lib Dem council have made "localism" work better than many (much to the annoyance of P-P-Pickles)
so were always going to win.
UKIP is just a protest vote that will melt away at a general election.

PS the immigrants in Eastleigh are all white : the local paper is printed in Polish.

[DontmindifIdo]

I think this thread has been interesting, along with the whole discourse over the last 12 months or so on immigration, because i remember the local elections in (I think) 2004 having an argument with another friend who's also Guardian reading middle class lefty who agreed that Labour should refuse to discuss immigration. It was the party line that to even discuss it was to be pandering to the racists. That view has held strong within the Labour party until very, very recently, that you aren't allowed to question at all immigration or you were treated like you were saying you want to send all the brown and black people home...

It's very hard for a lot of people on the left to see why this is such an issue because they've spent over a decade refusing to engage in the debate, so now, late to the discussions, they find the argument is framed by racists who were prepared to discuss it.

And it is an issue, for any major change (like that massive influxes of new immigrants in the 00's) there's always some downsides. Even if you believe overall the has been a benefit to the country, the refusal to acknowledge the downsides made (and still makes) the Labour party look like they don't understand or care about things that are making the lives of the British working class worse, and these are their key voters. (It's ok that Tories don't look like they understand the lives of poor people, no one expects them to)

This was a seat with a disgraced LibDem MP, the LibDems having had their first go at government and having let down a lot of their consitutents. The Tories are also in power, not polling well and having made tough choices that have also hurt a lot of people. It was always the case that another party could take a lot of the votes from the LibDems or Tories in a seat like this in a time like this, but it is very very telling that Labour couldn't get those votes (even with a high profile celeb candidate), but that it was UKIP that benefitted from the anti-government protest vote.

That might not translate to a large UKIP presence after the next election, but it might well translate to a long, long time in the wilderness for the Labour party.

[olgaga]

Talkin there are children from outside the catchment who do get into Thornden when places come up. Some of them live in Eastleigh. I'm sure it's not official, but funnily enough they tend to be the brighter ones, and those who've gone to the nearby independent preps.

[Talkinpeace]

olgaga
I know - the gerrymandering between Thornden and Toynbee is one of the wonders of the modern age (mine are at MB : I know of what I speak)

BUT
we have a lot of (southern) Poles here in southern Hampshire because we have welcomed them as hard working additions to the area.

The fact that the kids of Ford workers, BR workers and Stevedores seem to think that they like their parents will be paid £46k per year for unskilled jobs
is something for Mr Gove's department.

They can vote UKIP till their fat lazy arses melt into the sofa, but the fact is there ARE jobs there, just not glamorous or well paid ones : no shit sherlock, work harder at school then.

[Tansie]

Of 280 places @ Thornden, about 18 got in who weren't in catchment or sibling in catchment! Perhaps your 'when places come up' should be emphasised. How many a year might that be?! Funnily enough, to the best of my knowledge, barring maybe Otterboune that supplies 30 DC a year, the entire rest of catchment is in Eastleigh... Chandlers Ford is in Eastleigh though the sliver more or less to the west of the railway line is in the neighbouring Borough for electoral purposes. Your map, talkinpeace, shows Chandlers Ford is in Eastleigh! And yes, there is council housing in catchment! You sound like you're privileged to different information to the rest of us, Olga!

The Daily Echo in Eastleigh, tbf, isn't Polish.

[Xenia]

UKIP do promote a single flat tax rate and merger of tax and national insurance which is a good plan. However there is no much point in splitting the Tory vote. Mind you whoever won last time knew they were unlikely to get in again for a generation as the country was in such a mess. It was a poisoned chalice to win then.

[Longfufu]

UKIP are not racist, they will be getting my vote.

[Talkinpeace]

Tansie
do you not get the Polish edition?
in Shirley they sell equal numbers Polish and English

PS the Thornden catchment is most certainly in the Constituency of Steve Brine
as are bits of Toynbee
but I utterly agree with you about the "places come up"
I'm sure SH make a lot more of their money getting kids into KES than they do THornden

[Talkinpeace]

Smudging
indeed, but they were Northern Poles - nothing they hate more than the Southern Poles of Shirley !!!
Not joking - dealt with the lot on CIS building West Quay

[niceguy2]

Mind you whoever won last time knew they were unlikely to get in again for a generation as the country was in such a mess. It was a poisoned chalice to win then.

That was what Mervyn King predicted. But thankfully (or not depending on your political beliefs) it seems thanks to the total inadequacy of Labour his prediction may not come true.

[Tansie]

I know that 25 years ago I went out with an English born Polish bloke, a PhD student whose parents had fled the war, and was therefore 100% 'English' iykwim, who I met again a month ago thru work (!) who, after much other conversation, told me how 'things' had become trickier for him and his family since the arrival of the 'new Poles' in terms of perception, benefit cheating etc!
So his family were those smudging speak of? As opposed to newer immigrants who, inevitably, came as our first 'new accession' arrivals, were firstly considered novelties and 'hard workers' (like early adopters of anything!) but whose perception among the local populace, with the arrival of their purely economic immigrant compatriots, has turned to Benefit Tourist.

[merrymouse]

Fact is, ALL the parties have anti-immigration policies.

Obviously UKIP are a very good place for protest votes, as, unlike the Lib Dems, they are nowhere near government.

Agree, and also think none of the main parties are feeling very enthusiastic about Europe at the moment either.

Don't think the British really want Nigel Farage to sort it all out for them though.

[olgaga]

Tansie, Chandlers Ford and Hiltingbury are not in the Parliamentary Constituency of Eastleigh. They are, however, in Eastleigh Borough. CF and Hiltingbury are in the Parliamentary Constituency of Winchester.

What I said was: there are children from outside the catchment who do get into Thornden when places come up. Some of them live in Eastleigh.

I meant Eastleigh (town) which is not in the Thornden catchment, as opposed to parts of Eastleigh (Borough) which are in the catchment.

Others get into Thornden because they have managed to get into feeder schools whether or not they live in the Thornden catchment or even the feeder school catchment, because a place has become vacant and there is no-one within catchment on the waiting list. Which happens. Otterbourne is of course one of the Thornden feeder schools.

None of that is privileged information!

Where is the council estate in the Thornden catchment then?