Can i ask about Scottish independence?

[Tortington]

the conservatives have made a big deal about keeping the union together.
Cruddas - that guy who resigned after sellng meetings and who seems a bit bonkers - said that the conservatives were faking it to they can say they didn't want it and get the best deal for England.

so my question is

why do the conservatives in ideological terms want to keep the union.

in practice - cruddas is probably right the tories would greatly gain by scottish independence in England becuase they never get any seats there anyway.

I'd really love to know this too. Good posting.

anyone?

Well, they are called the 'Conservative and Unionist Party'. Tradition rather than ideology I think.

I don't believe Cruddas at all.

Don't forget that the Conservative Partty used to be called the Conservative and Unionist Party. They believe in a strong united sovereign state, unlike socialists who do not want strong independent nations, but a Socialist International where workers of the world unite under one overarching socialist central planning control. That is why Eurosceptics are mainly on the right in The UK Indpendence Party and the Conservative Party; they are against the loss of sovereignty, whereas the socialists want to pool sovereignty. Don't forget how Berlusconi described some of the EU elite as communists.

Devolution and weakening of the Union was started under Labour. The EU wants a weakening of national sovereignty and a pooling of national sovereignty and a Europe of regions, because regions are easy to control, whereas sovereign nations aren't.

The Conservatives believe in a strong Britain, in a strong Union and a united nation. They believe that a pooling of our resources makes us stronger. They are not Little Englanders, they are Great Britons.

Here is that great Conservative newspaper and that legendary author known as 'Daily Mail Comment' on the Union

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2102301/Scottish-Independence-The-irresistible-case-united-kingdom.html

I would recommend that Cruddas read more of 'Daily Mail Comment' to deepen his understanding.

I personally believe in self-determination and sovereignty, and if teh Scottish people wish to split from teh Union, then their wishes should be respected. But, I think Cruddas is wrong to think that this is what the Tories want for their own gain in England. The Tories are above petty politicking; they believe in the Union.

'Cruddas - that guy who resigned after sellng meetings and who seems a bit bonkers - said that the conservatives were faking it'

Faking it is not a Tory trait. The Daily Mail does not fake, for heaven's sake!
Cruddas need sto go back to school, he is beginning to sound the .

Let's not turn this into another "Oh the Tories are for this, therefore it must be evil"

Labour and the Lib Dems are also in favour of keeping the union and their position has never changed either.

The case for the union is quite simple. That together as a single entity we are stronger in the world (and the EU) than if we were separate. If you believe that then you are pro-union.

If you do not believe that and like the SNP do and think Scotland is better off on its own then by all means vote for independence. After all, that is what democracy is all about.

The thing I just cannot understand is why the SNP thinks it would be a good idea to devolve and promptly join the EU. As both a small and new member state, their views will be pretty much ignored by the big fish like France & Germany and they'll just have everything dictated to them from Brussels.

"why do the conservatives in ideological terms want to keep the union."

I would have thought the answer is in the name of the party. One definition of 'conservative' (small c) available is Holding to traditional attitudes and values and cautious about change or innovation, typically in politics or religion.

I don't think it has anything to do with traditional attitudes and values, because Cameron and teh Tory Party supports policies which are not traditional values etc. and has to face opposition from people who oppose him on these issues.

They wil spend lots of money and time campaigning for the Union, as will Labour and the LibDems. It is not about traditional values, it is about fundamental beliefs in the benefits of the Union. The Tories, just like any other party, change with the times, but there are some things they really believe in and some things they are against.

Cruddas is wrong, they aren't "faking it", they believe it.

do they have it in a manifesto or something and where can i read it - google is failing me.

I do have to say that i am skeptical that the torys are holding on to a strong belief.

Niceguy....Scotland would be a small and new country re EU but it will be harder to ignore Scotland's voice when they actually have a seat at the table.....

'I do have to say that i am skeptical that the torys are holding on to a strong belief.'

Remember that the Tories are the party of values, standards and principles. They are not accustomed to changing policy with the wind. Remember how Thatcher told the socialists, and possibly a young Cruddas too,

"you turn if you want to; the lady is not for turning"

As Mary Hopkins so famously sang
"Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end, we sang and danced ..."

Yes K999 I understand the principle. But I also don't believe that will be the case at all.

Remember Ireland when they rejected the Lisbon treaty. That worked well for them didn't it? They were told to vote again and next time come up with the right answer.

Don't be fooled into thinking that each country has a say. Well they do have a 'say'. But unless you are part of the big boys club, you have very little real sway. The UK has that. Scotland most certainly would not.

oh well now you've told me they are a party of values i'll just have to believe you

It's also about national and international prestige and, more than anything, about big business.

The Tories don't want this to happen on their watch. It would reduce England's standing internationally (for those who care about such things - and the Tories certainly do!)

I expect that the international conglomerates are, as we speak, carrying out research into the implications for their present and future investments, and they will almost definitely, imo, find that they prefer Scotland to remain part of the UK.

Niceguy2 I think Alex Salmond will say anything he thinks will go down well - 'We'll keep the queen, we'll keep the currency, we'll join the EU', etc. One thing he is very good at doing is watching and waiting. A few years down the line everything would be up for grabs again.

Niceguy2 - better to have a small and possibly ignored voice than no voice at all.