Just been on a course about new benefit system

[buggyRunner]

Christ it's a big shake up.

I say this as someone who won't be personally affected- it is harsh.

Basically if you claim any benefits other than child benefit you're probably going to have a loss.

I don't class having uncontrolled epilepsy and fibromyalgia as 'certain health issues'. I class them both as debilitating life-long chronic disabilities...

And I don't class my DC's disabilities as 'certain health issues' either.

Try living with uncontrolled epilepsy and fibro for a year, whilst looking after 4 DC's, two if whom have multiple medical needs, then come back and judge me. Until then, STFU about something you can't possibly understand until you have lived it for the past 9 years like I have...

But there is a lot of demand for cleaners/gardeners in central London where I live and in the SE where DM lives. Its actually really hard to find some one reliable who wants the work, which shows the current system is not functioning well.

And in the boom many jobs were taken by migrants which again shows problems with the system.

There will be even more demand Tilly once the housing benefit shake up gets going as those who WILL do ironing/gardening/cleaning won't be able to afford to live there.

Colouring, so you think zero people will be claiming hb in the SE and London?

Can't get cleaners easily here, either.

I am shocked though, that all the Eastern Europeans working in top flight hotels are here working illegally!

Ha ha ha, wondered how long that would take. Obviously, people who work are not entitled to draw on their national insurance when they do find themselves out of work.

As for cleaners, they are pretty difficult to find here. I would love to have a cleaner but I can't find one that I can afford.

I think you need a thread all to yourself, couthymow.

Oh I am sure there WILL be people claiming HB in London and the South East Tilly but I suspect most if not all of them will already be working so that the HB is a top up. I doubt very much that those NOT working (who might then be available to do cleaning etc) will be able to stay.....unless of course they are some of the lucky few in social housing.

I think the benefit system needs a shake up but I am not convinced by all the rhetoric this Govt is coming out with. Then again as someone who needs to live on benefits at the moment I would say that - I know how quickly life can change though and often when you least expect it.

I anticipate that in the next few years I will go back to work and I have a qualification which will enable that, nor will I be entitled to anything once I do as my salary will be good. I will always remember though that someties circumstances change and people who don't get benefits might someday need them - which is why I distrust these changes and worry about their impact.

I might be wrong, it might be just what this country needs but I am doubtful - just as an example, a person in my circumstances will be £120 a month worse off when these changes happen. I can tell you that life is tough now and losing that amount would just be a nightmare. I am fortunate, I can go back to work - some people can't.

Claire
Couthy makes valid points, no need for that.

Well said DD, its better to challenge the points someone raises that you disagree with rather than comment on them personally.

Why do people who are fortunate enough not to need the benefits system AT THE MOMENT feel the need and in fact seem to think it is ok to just trample all over the lives of those who do as if they somehow own thwm because theynare currently paying taxes? I am sick of the way this country perpetuates this them and us mentality and tries to shine a light on people on benefits as the leeches of everyone else's lifestyles. This is so so wrong and if the govt even caught and prosecuted a fraction of those who dodge tax via savvy accountants we wouldn,t need to chase the sick/unemployed/ disabled. Beet root you sold be ashamed of yourself

Not all of us Noddy. Whilst I have three disabled children and a disabled dh, we are a working family. Yes we get DLA, we get child benefit. BUT we are not, at the moment, in a situation where it is survival money.

Wow so this thread has moved on a bit since the last time I looked...or possibly not.

Let me say this loud and clear, THIS IS AN IDEALOGICAL ATTACK ON THE POOR BY THE RICH!

How do I know that, well apart from it is the poor who are taking the full force of Austerity, plus being as someone said up thread seen as "collateral damage" would indicate that a battle if not a war is under way. Any talk of damage which let us not forget is a nicer word than death / dead makes it clear that the aim of policy goes well beyond the stated outcome of deficit reduction. The cutting back of the state the re introduction of the sainted grammer schools, the attack on human rights, are all indications that this is a project that is more about rebalance power and influence back towards those that have the most power and money.

As an additional, but by far the most imortant bit of evidence for my claim, I would suggest that we consider the past record of the people who are currently in power. The 1980's saw "The largest shake up of welfare benefits for a generation" Funny how each time conservatives come in to power it herelds a shake up of the welfare state. What is more noteworthy though is the way that disabled people were possed as shirkers, scroungers, a waste of resources. Most of the benefits that we are about to lose like DLA were introduced by Thatcher the milk snatcher. Women especialy single mothers were forced to sign up to the csa or face benefit sanctions, hmmm csa how did that work out for people? Why were they targetted becouse idealogicaly the conservatives were horrified that their vision of a wholesome country where the lower orders were seen but never heard was under threat.

But and here is the kicker, we can go back as we all should after all history is there to teach us things as well as for us to appreciate what works and what does not, we can go back to the new poor law of 1830 (England) and 1845 (Scotland), the striking thing is the similarity of the language employerd by the government to justify why they are putting policy in to action. What it tells us is that this is a pattern and the pattern is not a response to economic problems it is a idealogical knee jerk reaction that through out the years has seen the poor as the cause of all the problems, and the disabled as not just the most vulnerable but the easiest to pick off as they are more isolated plus easier totarget either individualy as they have less means to defend aand fight back, or as a group for the same reasons.

Couthy, GB, Mrs D, I luff you.

colouring Oh I am sure there WILL be people claiming HB in London and the South East Tilly but I suspect most if not all of them will already be working so that the HB is a top up.

yes, and they are going to have to move somewhere more affordable or increase their hours of work (e.g. take on an extra job like cleaning), move somewhere smaller etc, just like milliions of other people do in this country already.

This is where your below-NMW cleaners & waiters are living ...

"Housing conditions in Britain are among the worst in Western Europe and cost the nation about £7bn a year by adding to the pressure on the NHS and other public services. A major study warns that a lack of affordable, decent homes, cuts to local authority housing budgets and the Coalition Government's benefit reforms are creating real hardship, misery and ill-health for some of the country's most vulnerable people."
The Independent

"In [Southall] alone, there are 2,500 of these structures. They just go on and on."
Sheds with beds - BBC video

"Instead of looking forward to the London 2012 Olympics, officials in host borough Newham are more concerned with the increasing number of slum landlords in the area."

Those who can't get a shared tool-shed to live in are on the pavement ...

"Almost 4,000 people are sleeping rough on London's streets, an increase of 8 per cent since last year. About half of these are from the UK and the rest from a wide variety of other countries, notably Poland."
The Independent

Scarred l get carers allowance for looking after my mum - l had to give up work to do so and l need every penny of it and l am still way out of pocket but hey - she's my mum,not the governments.
But recently my dad has also deteriorated very much and now l have to care for him also plus more for my mum cos he used to do some basic stuff in the house etc and for mum when he was wel, which l now do iyswim.

I applied for carers allowance for looking after my dad and was told l cant have it as you can only have it for looking after one person.

But if two of us (me and the woman down the road or another relative for example) go in and do the work l do for them between us then the woman down the road or relative could claim full carers allowance for one of my parents and l would still get it for the other.

So there is £68 going begging for my dad every week to pay someone to look after him. But wait a minute - someone is caring for him - me. But it stays in the pot and could only be paid out if l 'contracted out' all my dads care and just looked after my mum.

I used to be a fan of 'two for one' offers, not any more!

Gosh Tilly what if they are like me? Disabled child who needs security and routine, single parent who easily afforded private rents until my child's needs got to great and I needed to give up work. If I was in private rented accommodation it would be someone like me moving "where rents are more affordable". Uprooting a child who already finds the world a bewildering place just so people like you can smugly say "serves them right".

As it happens I am fortunately in social housing now but if I were not I would be mightily pissed off with your "sod off elsewhere" attitude.

Let's to God hope you do not ever find yourself in my position. Sadly it's only when people DO find themselves in this position that they realise how hard it already is without other people resenting them. And it IS resentment because otherwise it would not matter to you.

Wanna swap lives? No?

Funny that.

Loads of resentment but nobody ever wants to change places.

In fact it's people like you who make me feel worthless. No matter what we do as benefit claimants we will never be in the right no matter what we might have contributed in the past. No - it's a case of "if you cannot afford the rent anymore then just sod off elsewhere and take your disabled child with you" because that is the reality or will be.

And this thread neatly shows that I am bringing my disabled son up into a world which only values those who can contribute financially. What is the fucking point, might as well prepare him now for a life where people think he is worthless? Or shall we both jump off a bridge now? We'd save you poor beleaguered tax payers ...except we wouldn't because there will always be disabled people. And before anyone says "oh we don't mean disabled people" let me tell you they WILL lose money under these changes. And they will have to move potentially away from friends, family and local support. I rely on my relatives because I get sod all from any agencies. This "sod off elsewhere" plan which Tilly is so in favour of will lead to further social isolation for people like me who can least cope with it. Nice!

So forgive me for thinking what a crappy world this is sometimes and what a lot of shitty horrible people are in it. Those of you who dislike benefit claimants like me - what shitty bloody lives you must lead to envy me mine.

Leithlurker, it's no such thing. If we had a balanced budget and the government introduced such sweeping changes then yes you could argue that.

But our budget is nowhere near balanced. The figures don't lie. How do you propose to cut £190 billion from our budget without somehow affecting the poor? You can't.

And don't forget 'each time' the Conservatives come to power they have to cut services because of the fact the previous Labour government has spent all the money. Then eventually we tire of the cuts and we vote Labour back in who then spend lots of money 'fixing' all the cuts the Tories made. It's just a vicious circle and I hope one day we break out of it.

Leithlurker

Wow so this thread has moved on a bit since the last time I looked...or possibly not.

Let me say this loud and clear, THIS IS AN IDEALOGICAL ATTACK ON THE POOR BY THE RICH!

Say it as often as you like, it still isn't true, and if you believe that the best thing for 'the poor' is to be handed other people's money by smiling Guardianistas in order to salve their consciences, then more fool you.

Grow up Flat.
I get so bored when people just come on to these threads to either patronise, or demonstrate their intellectual credentials, usually failing in both.
I pay tax and yes, I'm quite happy for my tax to go toward paying DLA for anyone who needs it, including my dh.

Dawndonna

^Grow up Flat.
I get so bored when people just come on to these threads to either patronise, or demonstrate their intellectual credentials, usually failing in both.^

You don't seem to have a problem with people coming on here spouting crap when they agree with you though.

I pay tax and yes, I'm quite happy for my tax to go toward paying DLA for anyone who needs it, including my dh.

I thought this thread was still about the changes to child benefit so that it only covers the first three children?

It seems it has moved on. Of course it has. DLA is something about which people can blame The Evil Tories, whereas it's harder to say that people should have child benefit for as many children as they choose.

Actually they should. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean they shouldn't.
You see, much as it may surprise you, we live in a free society. That means we have choices, we can limit the number of children we have, or we can choose not to. That is a fact.
Okay, there are people like you who consider it morally wrong to do so, but most do not seem to have looked at causes or alternatives, other than stop money. A somewhat simplistic view.
The thing that makes me laugh the most about this is, those that think we should stop paying these 'baby factory' women, are those that don't sign their kids up to sex ed classes, or who think it's morally wrong to allow contraception to minors. Until we educate properly, this cycle will continue.
Problem is, there's no money is there, not for welfare, or education. Only for the rich, and for defence.

Not so subtle side steps from niceguy and flatpack, My post long as it was was about the thinking behind the ideology not the practical framework.

So you both agree and condone people dying being killed, a financial reduction of the state by deliberately and with much malice forcing people to die. That is the choice that has been made, I see we have passed from arguing that it was the only choice so now we get to the bones. This is the choice they made, it is not one they had a gun held to their head and were forced to make they (the condems) made it freely and knowingly based on an understanding of the world and finance as well as what they perceive as the best way to hold on to elected office. in other words IDEOLOGY. At least have the guts to say what you are supporting niceguy and flatpack. Don't you dare hide behind blaming others, or your own illogical prejudices. Lets here you defend the result of what your saying. Families broken up, people dead, starving and homeless wandering the streets in larger numbers, those that have jobs working far more hours forcing families in to crises and raising more dysfunctional children. Get a pair both of you!

Unlike the richer, decent, hardworking fellows in the news lately,

I am proud to pay tax and would like to continue doing so if allowed

I like that my taxes go to help others.

I don't read the Gaurdian. I can't afford a daily paper.

What utter bollocks you talk. Like wishing to have a welfare state that oes not punish the poor is the reserve of middle class hand wringers.

I get sick of people talking theoretically about what people should do when they are pretty sure they will never have to do it.

Having a grandfather who worked dwn a mine doesn't mean you know about poverty btw. Going on about how your nanna Mary had three jobs means fuck all.
It wasn't you and you not know what she suffered.

If there are no jobs, then how come so many Eastern Europeans seem to be able to find them - all the babysitters, nannies and au pairs I know are Eastern European, all the repair men in our flats are Eastern European, all the staff in our local cafe are Eastern European. Some of them are doing two jobs.

One of my best friends is Hungarian and she has been here for 4 years and has been out of work for 2 weeks that whole time, never claimed any benefits. She came here speaking virtually no English. She just put a lot of effort into finding work.