Scotland. Independent?

[Solopower]

Do we need a thread on Scotland?

Here are some opinions - what do you think?

Ian Bell: www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/a-vote-for-independence-not-for-salmonds-policies.17698693
The Scottish people should have the right to choose.

Iain McWhirter: www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/why-snp-has-to-work-to-win-round-scunnered-scots.17677823
Most people have other priorities just now and are too tired to care.

Humza Yousaf
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/26/scottish-independence-labour?newsfeed=true
The Scottish Labour Party should back independence and go against the party line.

Other questions:
Should the rest of the UK be able to vote on Scottish Independence?
Why are the Greens backing the SNP?

It's easy to see why the Scots want to be independent while we have the Coalition in power, but next elections we might get something better.

No the rest of the UK should not and will not have a say. The whole reason some Scots want independence is the fact that Scott currently has no say as it does not have a high enough population to have any impact in a UK wide vote, eg General Elections.

The Scottish Greens have always supported independence - this is not a new thing.

There was a thread on this subject earlier today BTW.

Oh, where? Missed it.

I think the scots should be able to vote on this and do what they feel best.

Okay so the yes campaign has started in Scotland. Only people who are on the electoral roll in Scotland can vote, and the referendum date will be in salmond's proposed timeframe.

No campaign will start 'sometime next year'. Wee bit of complacency there perhaps?

Not a Scot and not particularly bothered either way about the outcome but I heard some of Salmond's arguments when the 'yes' campaign launched and I thought they were a bit woolly. One in particular that, if freed from the yoke of Westminster, Scots would suddenly stop whining & get motivated (I paraphrase) seemed particularly vague

Personally I cannot see how breaking up the union right now can be a good thing.

For example, SNP have said they will join the Euro 'when the time is right' which currently is probably never. In which case they will continue to use the pound and therefore have to accept that interest rates would be set in London.

In addition, there's no such automatic right of Scotland joining the EU. Again the SNP have said they are 'confident' that they would start talks from within, but what does that mean? What if they are wrong? Seems like an awfully big risk to me.

It seems to me like Salmond is light on the details and the devil as we all know is in the details.

JennyPiccolo, I hope they are not complacent. I am really looking forward to hearing some good arguments against breaking up the Union - here, in Scotland. Most of what I have read so far would seem to be in favour.

As far as the currency is concerned, Niceguy2, how weird it would be if one sovereign nation had to rely on another to set interest rates and thus control the economy of another. How on earth could that ever work? I think that is just a sop to the traditionalists who might have a sentimental attachment to the pound. And as you say, to join the Euro would be bonkers just now.

If we did split, I think it would make more sense to have our own currency.

I agree with what you have written about the details, NIceguy2, but Ian Bell says the referendum will be about whether or not Scots have the right to choose who they are governed by, not the details of any independence agreement. Presumably, in a democracy, we could be expected to be consulted about the details like do we sack the queen, do we rid ourselves of nuclear power plants, etc.

But how exciting to have a brand new country, that we can shape for ourselves, and which could be whatever we wanted it to be! If we could guarantee that we would all have a voice in deciding whether or not to be a republic for example, that could, possibly, persuade me to vote for independence.

What I think is more likely, however, is that the rest of the UK will never, ever, in a million years, let go of the oil or the nuclear plants or the hugely disproportionate number of Scottish soldiers in the army. Imagine if the Scots left the British Army!

I still haven't found that other thread on Scottish independence, btw. Can anyone help?

m.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1481171-Scottish-Independence-and-nationality-musing?msgid=31991434

You are very articulate SoloPower :-)

There have been other threads btw, and I'm sure there will be more :-)

Thank you, ItsAllGoingToBeFine. Yes, two years' worth of discussions about Scotland ... What's not to like?

Somebody on TV said there were more pandas in Scotland than Tory MP's. I thought that was quite amusing.

You make some very persuasive arguments in favour of independence on the other thread, ItsAllGoingToBeFine. But these days, I don't think any country is in control of its own finances or its own resources, since these are, more often than not, owned by global companies that could be owned and run by people of any nationality. These global companies have a lot of clout, and can you show me any government that is not in thrall to them?

In fact I think we might as well leave the economic and financial arguments out of it, as for every set of figures you can produce that prove one thing, someone else will produce figures that prove the opposite.

MarySA, do you think the Tories have the same problems mating?

I didn't mean you as in you, ItsAllGoingToBeFine, when I was talking about figures - I'm not doubting yours. I meant one, as in anyone.

I'm astonishd to learn that we all generate £1,000 per person more in tax than they do in England! Is that because we are more honest than they are, and declare all our earnings?

If Scotland votes to leave that is their democratic right. What I think is missing is clear unbiased facts of what in practical terms will happen.

1. How will the assets and more importantly the debts of the UK be shared?
2. Will there be a separate currency
3. Will Scotland be able to borrow funds at the same AAA rating that the UK does or will the have to increase interest rates?
4. Will companies have to be dual regulated or sole regulated. If the example of RBS were to happen again, can we assume that Scotland would bail it out without any help? Look what has happened to Ireland.
5. I assume that Westminster would no longer have Scottish MP's, I would have thought therefore it would be harder for Labour to win power. Is that what the rest of the UK really want?

Jollydiane, that's one of the reasons that I don't want independence. The rest of the UK needs us!

I think no one can give definite answers to all the questions jolly, as if we vote yes, that would begin a huge series of debates and treaties to be signed, to agree things like sharing the debt out, defence etc.

To me, its an ideological argument first and foremost. Do we want to have more power to make decisions for ourselves, or not? The details, while obviously important, cant all be settled before a referendum, because the UK government woud never agree to favourable terms before a vote, incase that swings some people's decision. The Yes campaign can state what it would like to happen, but ultimately it is about how we want decision to be made.

Unfortunately not Solarpower :)

To me the SNP argument just seems a bit odd.

Essentially it goes like this

"Scotland will be better off without interference from London. We can be masters of our own destinies."

Fair enough.

Except they all know that Scotland has to join the EU to survive economically. They can't really survive outside of it. And automatic EU membership is not a given. So big risk.

Secondly so Scotland doesn't like MP's in London having a say in what goes on in Scotland. Well at least they have MP's there! So they have quite a bit of direct influence. Can you imagine the real influence Scotland would have in the EU? It would still be dominated by France & Germany. If/when they joined the Euro then interest rates would be set in Berlin.

So from where I'm standing the SNP want the Scottish to give up the safety of being in the UK to go it alone and get dictated to by the French & Germans. Magic.

You might like to read ItsAllGoingToBeFine's post on another thread, NiceGuy2. According to her, we're in a pretty good position financially.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/1481171-Scottish-Independence-and-nationality-musing?pg=2

I don't see why it would be difficult for Scotland to join the EU. And why couldn't Scotland survive out of it, like Switzerland, for example?