Scotland. Independent?

[Solopower]

Do we need a thread on Scotland?

Here are some opinions - what do you think?

Ian Bell: www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/a-vote-for-independence-not-for-salmonds-policies.17698693
The Scottish people should have the right to choose.

Iain McWhirter: www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/why-snp-has-to-work-to-win-round-scunnered-scots.17677823
Most people have other priorities just now and are too tired to care.

Humza Yousaf
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/may/26/scottish-independence-labour?newsfeed=true
The Scottish Labour Party should back independence and go against the party line.

But presumably, even if we are not forced out of the EU we would decide post independence whether or not to stay and whether or not to keep the pound.

If the Yes campaign's line is that everything will stay the same it's just that we'll be independent, it doesn't seem to make much sense to spend all the time and money it would take to organise it.

It's almost like Scotland is a rebel without a cause.

Except for the democracy issue, that is. But (I've said it before - sorry) there is no reall democracy as long as huge multinationals rule the world ...

JennyPiccolo

Oh. From the Yes campaign site:

'Scotland would remain part of the EU. EU law doesn't allow for Scotland to be unilaterally kicked out on independence. And, EU law also makes clear that Scotland can't be forced to join the euro. We will continue to use the pound, just as we do today'

What on earth makes the SNP think that the British government would allow them to continue using the pound? If Scotland does that then every Scottish pound is backed by the Bank of England. Can anyone name the precedent whereby another country simply starts to use a currency?

EU law might not 'allow for Scotland to be unilaterally kicked out on independence' but there is no precedent in EU law for a splitting of one country in to two. Would the EU really welcome another small nation with uncertain financial stability at this time?

It would be better for Scotland to be out of the eu, though.

Can the british government stop them using the pound? Is there a precedent for that?

The whole currency issue is really complicated. Probably not helped by the fact that the main currency used in Scotland is bank notes printed in Scotland, which are not legal tender in the UK (including Scotland).

I suppose, hypothetically Scotland could continue to print its own money, but backed from within Scotland rather than by the Bank of England?

Yeah, these are all just hypotheticals just now. Will wait to see what the white paper says.

In the meantime will have to take the Yes campaign's word for it, because the other side are being very quiet.

Why are Scottish notes not legal tender? How strange.

I looked this up. Scottish notes are legal currency north of the border (that is they are banked by the UK Parliament.) But they are not legal tender. And English bank notes aren't Legal tender in Scotland either. Make of that what you will!!

I still don't understand, really. Is it a hangover from some medieval laws likes the ones that say you can kill an Englishman with a fish on christmas eve on a helicopter and nonsense like that?

You need to google the difference between "legal tender" and "promissory note"

I stumbled across this thread and read with interest as I was considering starting a similar one. I am a very proud Scot but very against Independence as I just quite frankly don't think it will work.

My fear over the coming 2 and a half years, apart from getting so bored of the whole thing people disengage and don't vote at all, is that we are not going to get factual, non-partisan information from anyone. The SNP will just give the pros, everyone else will give the cons and there will only be vitriol and rhetoric rather than true debate - as could be seen on the referendum blog 2 years ago.

Part of the problem is that there is so much that the SNP won't tell us or are woolly on - "we're confident blah blah", "we have advice on blah blah" (but won't tell us what or from who). So much hinges on the few issues like oil, Europe etc that no-one is looking at things like how much it would cost to set up our own benefits structure, taxation system etc etc.

"Can the british government stop them using the pound? Is there a precedent for that?"

Given that Australia, NZ, South Africa, South Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) and other Empire countries used to use sterling but have since adopted their own currencies, there are plenty of precedents for separating the currencies.

Why don't you think it'll work, birdy?

Jenny I think it's all about being a small, and therefore potentially vulnerable country in a very unstable economic environment. I dread to think how we would have fared in 2008/9 without the rest of the UK.

I also have concerns about years down the line when oil is no longer a major player - sure we have whisky and tourism but not much else significant enough to generate income for the country. And doesn't Scotland have a much larger public sector than the rest of the UK. I suppose it comes down to the fact that I think somewhere down the line we'll end up paying more tax to maintain the same level of public service that we now have, and for me that's not really something I want.

Maybe it's just down to my natural aversion to change - I'm happy (well, not signficantly unhappy is probably more accurate) with the status quo.

BirdyBedtime: there are several EU countries smaller than Scotland doing just fine.

As well as whisky and tourism we have massive renewable energy resources which will mean we will be a mass exporter of electricity.

I assume your objection to public sector is that it is paid for by taxpayers? As Scotland pays more tax than it recieves back this should not be an issue.

Also Scotland's biggest export is electronics, which nobody seems to remember. And whisky brings in something like 6bn a year? Cant remember exact figure but it was on the news the other night.

I think, though, you represent a popular opinion on this. In order to want change, you first have to feel injustice. I feel injustice because my vote doesnt count for anything. I feel injustice because the country's in a state. I want change. It will be sore at first but i think a few years down the line we will be in a much better position of recovery than we would have been otherwise.

I wouldnt mind paying more tax for a better future. It's £7 a pint in Norway, but they have the highest standard of living in the world. Everyone is looked after, there are well paid jobs for everyone. The can afford higher taxes because their country has been managed well. That's what I want for Scotland.

Also RE oil. We dont see much of that money just now, I think the plan is not to use any oil money in the running of the country, and instead save it for the future. There's estimated 40+ years of oil left which would generate a massive safety net for Scotland in any future times of financial stress. This is what Norway have done with their oil money.

ALSO the oil border would, in the event of independence, be moved to where it should be geographically. The oil border between Scotland and England is currently at Carnoustie, which is north of Dundee.

Grr just had to type post again as had been logged out.

Good points jenny but I do think you hit the nail on the head with your point about injustice. I don't believe my vote doesn't count (even though the parties I voted for might not be in power), I don't actually think the country is in a state (look at Greece and I feel a lot better), I don't believe that independence will actually make day-to-day life any better for most people and I don't really want to have to pay £7 for a pint!

For example I don't think an independent Scotland would be any better at tackling health inequalities than we are now (current and recent governments have put a lot of money into this area with very little tangible benefit).

It also slightly saddens me that the type of sensible and reasoned debate that is being carried out on this thread (at least at the moment) is not carried out in RL where things always descend into name calling, negative campaigning etc.

I do also wonder how many people are already firmly on the yes or no side of the fence and how many will really be influenced by the (lengthy) campaigning.

I know that we are working to develop renewables and am fully supportive of this (although I do also think we need nuclear power to complement this but that's a different argument) but is exporting electricity (what is left after our own usage) really going to bring in the expected billions?

Yes, it's nice to have a grown up debate about it.

Really don't know what way the vote will go. It's a while away as well, will be good to see the white paper when it comes out next year. Can we assume that the millions unemployed/suffering wage cuts etc will feel injustice and want to change it?

Did you know Scotland has one of the most ambitious climate change bills in the world? I am excited about what a positive force Scotland could be in the world. wipes tear from glass eye

JennyPiccolo

Also RE oil. We dont see much of that money just now, I think the plan is not to use any oil money in the running of the country, and instead save it for the future. There's estimated 40+ years of oil left which would generate a massive safety net for Scotland in any future times of financial stress. This is what Norway have done with their oil money.

You don't see oil-specific money but Scotland does see plenty of taxpayer subsidy.

If Scotland were to put that money aside, where would the shortfall come from?

ALSO the oil border would, in the event of independence, be moved to where it should be geographically. The oil border between Scotland and England is currently at Carnoustie, which is north of Dundee.

Really? It would just 'be moved', would it?

There's a very precise and well-organised way of calculating which countries control which parts of the sea around their coastline. I think that Alex Salmond, and you, might be disappointed at the outcome because it won't be a line drawn straight out to the east from the border with England.

Sorry, but the idea of any government attempting to get Scotland to accept a £7 pint would have to have balls of steel. And have invested in some form of nuclear bunker for them all to hide in after announcing it.

flatpackhamster Scotland puts more into the taxation pot than it gets back.

The geneva agreement on resources under the sea dictates that they are divided by median lines. England would no longer have a right to oil north of the border.

Either way, it's a finite rescource and we (as the UK or as Scotland by itself ) have to find ways to live without it. I think it's a red herring on the debate, really.

" There's a very precise and well-organised way of calculating which countries control which parts of the sea around their coastline. "

Completely correct. However, these methods were NOT used when the Westminster government quietly moved the boundary in 1999.

www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2012/01/scotlandengland-maritime-boundaries/