France and Greece Election results!

[LadyWithEDS]

So, what do you think it means for Europe?

Very valid point richmanpoorman. There are two options or Greece, neither of which are good options.

There is a massive amount of corruption in Greece and every government that this country has had (all two families!) has royally fucked this country further and further into despair. There were many people that benefited from avoiding tax and corruption and as was pointed out earlier things do have to change in Greece. Public sector workers never should have got the pay, pensions and early retirement that they are so used to. However you have to remember that this is a fraction of the Greek people. Not everyone works/worked in this way. The majority of Greek people that are suffering now never had all these benefits to start with. Cost of living rose dramatically with the euro and wages never really increased to keep up with this. Greece is and was a poor country with a poor economy. It never should have been allowed into the euro in the first place.

The majority of Greek people want to revert back to the drachma...is this the best idea in the long run for Greece? I really don't know.

Just wanted to say that the mainstream press is not inclined to make it clear that the Poles, Hungarians and indeed the Latvians have all been out on the march. There seems to be almost a blackout on the news. Will be back later with some info.

The capitalist class are very good at ensuring that only "good news" or rather news that suits them is conveyed. Can you imagine the political class and the media wanting every citizen in every country to actually see that the left are on the march and it's international. In what way would that serve the interests of the media?

Good point mini
The question is - do the people run the economy or does the economy run the people? The banking system as an integral part of capitalism isn't a natural phenomenon like weather, it was created by people and can be changed by people

Friend of mine has just been home to Northern Greece and she says that bartering, paying what you can, feeding the neighbour and smiling thru it is happening big time. Flip side is the dramatic rise in suicide.

I feel so badly for the Greeks - American backed dictator many moons ago and rubbish deal at the end of the war have impacted badly over generations. I'm also interested at present banking scandal implied on this thread. To a person not interested in money, so knows nothing about it - who are fleecing the Greeks this way? Big investors or high street banks or who?

They are not being fleeced. They are suffering the effects of a socialist profligate economy for decades and if anything is should drive home to us all how important it is the austerity measure being implemented in the UK, Spain, Italy, etc. succeed.

Novack That is actually quite funny. You might recall the collapse of Lehman Bros in USA - that notorious hotbed of Trotskyite economics. It started the domino effect collapse of the economy around the world, caused in large part by desperate people taking unaffordable mortgages (sub-prime) which were repackaged and sold on by unscrupulous financial institutions. So a problem caused by a lack of state spending on affordable social housing. Let the idiot bankers pay for their own crisis.

juliascar Yes I do remember Lehman Bros and if the USA had not been full of people taking out mortgages they could not afford and were allowed to walk away from by handing over the keys and washing their hands of the debt then this problem would have been a lot less. The banks could have pursued those debts for the actual amount they over borrowed living outwith their means.

On a grander scale Greece outlived its means for more than a decade. Greece has had more than a year to pass privatisation legislation and sell off the state assest that could be sold eg. airports but they have not made any real attempt at that. Look at how long Olympic Airways was subsidised because the government felt they needed to have a flag carrier airline. If they had learned a little from thatcher they would have let unions negotiate ludicrous term and conditions for grossly loss making sectors of the economy and would have been far better placed to ride out the storm.

Compare Greece to Iceland. Iceland was caused by poor banking legislation leading to their economic collapse as the people are having to service the bank debts. Greeks are paying the debts they ran up.

So Novack - where were they meant to live? Privatisation has been a triumph in public utilities, hasn't it? Just look how much better trains, electricity and water have been. Genius. Let's learn from Thatcher - have you visited the crack houses of the old mining villages lately?

" Yes I do remember Lehman Bros and if the USA had not been full of people taking out mortgages they could not afford and were allowed to walk away from by handing over the keys and washing their hands of the debt then this problem would have been a lot less. The banks could have pursued those debts for the actual amount they over borrowed living outwith their means"

Did you read what Julia said "a problem caused by a lack of state spending on affordable social housing"

Lack of social housing or affordable housing and the fact that these vulnerable minorities were actually TARGETED for these loans.

Some were miss-sold because they were given "teaser rates". The institutions that sold these loans knew full well what they were doing. I spoke to someone (a very good friend) who worked for one of the banks that sold on the toxic debt and bailed out.

I have no problems with my electricity or water and it's pretty much market rate in the UK compared to the rest of europe.

What do drug addicts have to do with the economy. They're addiction would still be there even if the economy was good.

Novak, The situation with water is a rip off and I think in time we will find that we are paying a lot more.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2141568/We-plug-leaks-allowed-raise-bills-Water-firms-want-pass-cost-cutting-waste.html

and no I won't apologise for finding it in the daily mail

Novak, destitution, unemployment, break down in communities, divorce, depression and mental health problems,addiction, they all result from alienation and the economy. Where addiction isn't related directly to the economic situation directly, it is often as a result of pressures within the prevailing eco-social conditions in which we live.

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2142663/UK-addicted-sleeping-pills-Stress-related-insomnia-rise-start-economic-crunch.html and here is a form of socially sanctioned, profit driven, drug addiction

'and no I won't apologise for finding it in the daily mail '

And nor should you; it's the only place you will find it!

Water price should reflect the cost of major infrastructure improvements. People should pay for what they use and have meters installed. Then it will be fairer for all.

I'm surprised you use the word fair novak - your idea of fair sounds like " I'm alright Jack" to me.

Greece has had 50/60 years of instability - it is not just internal corruption that has caused this problem and they certainly haven't just had socialist governments. As I said the people's fear of the state and lack of tax investment goes back to the right wing dictatorship at least.

So many large families, already struggling, will face rising bills for an essential resource as part of a plan to 'save the planet'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-432453/Water-meters-introduced-face-global-warming.html

Yes Novak, and when the erosion of peoples income has finally reached it's peak they can all stop using water. I will and what's more lots of other people will have to limit the amount of water they use. How will the share holders like that?

Well said daffodilly2. It is a fairly new democracy.

I'm off to have a read, that looks interesting Betelguese.