Is there an 'underclass' on MN?

[wildswans]

I have name changed for this.

I have been on MN for about 6 months - off and on - and one of the most interesting aspects is the insight into people's lives and the contrasts and similarities. You can communicate with others you probably wouldn't meet in RL and in circumstances where they feel able to be completely open and frank about themselves, their families, their worries, their aspirations etc.

However, I can't help wondering if there is an 'underclass' who subscribe to MN. I have noticed, in particular, that any site which relates in any way to money or status - such as jobs and level of earnings and spending or whether a SAHM or WOHM - provokes very strong reactions. By this I don't just mean engaging in heated debate - which is part of the fun - but there is an undercurrent of envy and spite, which is very unattractive.

There are clearly a lot of high earning, highly successful women in MN and a number who have DHs who are well off. There are also lots who are earning less but do worthwhile and fulfilling jobs and others who are happy to care for their DC full time. Most MNs agree that it's all about choices and it doesn't really matter what you choose as long as it's right for you.

Yet the 'underclass' often seek to highjack interesting and constructive threads by pouring scorn on anyone who is a high earner, can afford tickets to the theatre (or even the zoo in one case!), or go on decent holidays. Presumably these are the ones who want the entrepreneurs to be taxed into exile and for a 'mansion tax' to be imposed. I can tell you that you don't get a 'mansion' for £2m in london or the South East, so what is that all about? In my view, it's nasty spiteful class envy and emanates from a small number of people on MNs who haven't achieved much in their lives so don't think anyone else should either.

Has anyone else reached this conclusion or AIBU?

The Second Coming - quite.

Roger - your point might have more weight was MN exclusively female, however as you illustrate it's not.

I must say MN is really hitting the jackpot at the mo, foulmouthed illiterate harridans, hairy manhating bullies, now inverse snobs. Go us!

Half my post has went missing;

On mn you can see different people with different money and I guess at times poorer people can't get their heads around someone spending 150 on one meal out. I struggle with my high earner friend to understand how anyone can spend so much on one meal or a pair of jeans. Yet my lower earning friend spends double that a month on cigarettes yet I rarely think about that. However both my poorer friend and richer friend both have more disposable income than me so often don't understand I can't just nip out for a night out if I have not budgeted for that. I don't think this is bitchy or nasty on any part but a lack of understanding.

Underclass is the most inappropriate word.

When you see stories in the press f children abandoned for days on end, living in squalor, unwashed for weeks and dying of violence or neglect, THAT is the underclass
Parents posting on a forum that they are skint and and can only afford a day trip instead of 2 weeks in a villa in Tuscany is just so not the same.

I have found an element of competitive poverty on some threads but only in recent times . Back in 2003 we all used to rub along in a much less chippy way

I've not noticed this.

"I think some people are confusing 'being left wing' with 'being jealous of others'"

I think TheSecondComing has it spot on here.

(And fwiw, I'm also from a wealthy family, and at the moment my DH pays the higher rate of tax, but if we had two older DC I think we would struggle to pay for family days out to the zoo, as it's bloody expensive, and theatre tickets can be extortionate. This makes me think the OP has a fairly flimsy grasp on quite how much lower income families can struggle and so is confusing with .)

I haven't noticed it.

There are so many things wrong with your OP I don't know where to start.

Underclass? Do you even know what that means and the connotations?

I have no idea what you're talking about either about this 'derailment' and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

The wikipedia definition of an underclass is 'the segment of the population that occupies the lowest possible position in a class hierarchy, below the core body of the working class'.

I agree with those posters who say that MN is a reflection of RL and that many people are envious of others. However, in RL where anonymity is not assured, they tend to be more tactful in their opinions.

I can see that for some, like married in white, it is an opportunity to stealth boast, and for others it is an insight into 'how the other half lives', so they can feel either smug or jealous depending upon which side of the divide they fall. It's a bit like reading a Catherine Cookson novel - the rich people are always the baddies!

Regarding 'mansion tax', it all depends on your view of what a 'mansion' actually is. My point was that in London and the South East a normal family home can easily cost £2m, by which I mean a house which is not even detached and has no land. I am not aware of any mansions in Barnes (which is a pretty suburb of London) although I can well believe that there are some magnificent properties in Scotland for this sum.

I am not going to enter into a debate about me as it was intended to be a general discussion rather than personalised, but I do not have £2m of equity in my property which is a different issue - perhaps I should ask my mortgagee to pay the 'mansion tax'!

Underclass!

Own up, who went and gave computers to the lumpenproletariat? They only ever get in the way.

OK, so you've dressed this all up in a fairly offensive 'envious underclass' thing...

...but actually you're just pissed off that you'll have to pay the mansion tax?

I don't want to come over all Trills but may I point out that we have a 'Politics' section if you wish to start a thread debating the mansion tax? If I were you, I'd have a quick google and find out how many homes in the UK are actually worth more than £2m, because that's the first thing I'm going to ask you when you do.

Seriously, I wonder what you mean by "underclass" in your op. It seems that you mean people who are both poor and envious, which is a weird and arbitrary conflation of genuine class characteristics (poverty) with psychological characteristics that are present across all classes (envy).

I am middling in income, but highly envious of MNers with PhDs. What class does that make me?

Well some People who claim housing benefits will probably have to move to a cheaper property when the new rules come in. Similarly if (probably won't happen) a mansion tax come in some people might have to downsize.

Ooooooo underclass - me me - I'm one.

I used to have a good job earning "enough". My husband had a job earning "enough"

Two years later.

After nearly a year of sick, my husband lost his job, he is now leaving the house at 5 and returning at 8. Thats 6 days a week. Earning a quarter of what he used to.

I am a SAHM, no choice in the matter. We are literally on a tightrope, and about to loose everything...

I'm not envious. Good luck to you. I hope nothing goes wrong for you and you don't end up in our position. A set of horrible circumstances which couldn't be helped.

You are doing exactly what you are accusing others off. You have no idea of whats going on behind the comments on the boards.

Got to go my reasonable response is going to get ranty.

I wonder why you felt the need to namechange for this? Could it be because it is yet another offensive post? Your views are horrible. You obviously know this if you feel you have to namechange.

MN reflects RL. There are wealthy and there are poor posters. There are well-educated, intelligent posters and there are ill-educated and rather ignorant posters.

But it does not mean that the well educated and wealthy are in any better or more deserving than the ignorant and poor.

And it does not mean that the well educated are always the wealthy or the ignorant the poor.

What you are actually describing is a state of mind that a few posters have, which tends to be based on envy.

There have always been boastful threads about money here and - especially - the 'competitive poor' threads, where anyone with any money to spend on anything can be pilloried.

So your assertion that there is an undercurrent of envy and spite is probably true - although IMVHO, having been here for coming up to 7 years this describes only a few of the thousands of posters on MN. Your attempt to label these posters as 'the underclass' is offensive to the extreme.

OP YABVU to use the term underclass, I think perhaps conceding that point may help move the thread along?
Otherwise regarding the envy issues, I am a single parent on benefits with four children , my yearly income is just over £21000. When there are posts from high earners bemoaning the cost of living I'm not envious, more incredulous. I remember one benefit bashing thread where a poster with a joint family income of £25000 claimed they couldn't afford a holiday for a family of four. I can afford short camping trips for me, four children and to pay for my friend to come and help as I'm disabled. It just comes down to careful budgeting and accepting that you have to make do. I just find it hard to believe that some people can't work out how to do it?

Underclass is a horrible term that may apply to a very small percentage of the population, but I don't think I have seen it on here.

I agree that people who are fortunate financially often get jumped on by posters who have less, I have seen reverse snobbery on here many times. People who are unfortunate financially should not feel the need to constantly point out that others are luckier and that they have to struggle for x, y and z. But sometimes they do. Understanding is needed both ways.

The £2m tax thing highlights that I think. There are people who live in expensive properties through inheritance, or through having a house that has significantly increased in value, that doesn't mean they will always have an income to match. It is short sighted to assume that everyone who lives in a huge house has a high income. In the same way that it is shortsighted to assume that every council tennant on HB is a scrounger.

Yet somehow one position is considered more worthy on MN, more deserving of sympathy and understanding. From what I have seen at least.

Crikey Moses, what a nasty thread for a Saturday morning!
I don't normally get involved on such things...But, referring to anyone as the 'underclass' is pretty horrid.
I'm sorry, but 2 million WILL get you a very nice house in a VERY nice area anywhere in the country.
I think YABU and venomous.

As I commented on the 'theatre ticket' thread, I am assuming, for the sake of argument, that your OP was directed at me and others who commented against the ticket purchaser.

I can assure you, my scorn was not directed at the ticket purchaser for being able to buy theatre tickets but for the comment that the tickets were loose change to her.

Commenting as I did does not come from a place of envy or spite, but from a position of dislike at the gravitas she gives toward her financial position in direct comparison with those around her.

For you to imply that I am some sort of under class, OP, is insulting and spiteful.

Why did you feel the need to name change? Handier for a bit of stirring?

I haven't noticed it, I've noticed a bit "oh ffs you think thats a problem?", misery comparison but thats life. I'm a cleaner who likes what she does, its not hugely fulfilling or demanding - thank Christ and the hours enable me not to need paid childcare - I'm not sure if I'm a part of your "underclass" or not.

1. It is not nice to refer to anyone as 'underclass' - what does that say about you?

1. You've refered to people in a collective way which suggests you feel those that are well off are more qualified to post on mumsnet or have more right to than those who have less material wealth.

1. How do you know who has money and who doesn't? You can't possibly know that about anonymous posters and you can't assume everything about people based on jobs either.

The tone of the OP makes me uncomfortable and suggests you've collected information about various posters.

Jealousy is not nice but snobbery is even worse imo.........YABU

Oh and if you think you are reasonable why did you name change?

Notes Roger bacon, probably does as he is alone a lot.