Do we no longer live in a democracy?

[LilyBolero]

The United Kingdom purports to be a democracy. And yet, the people of this country have no say in what happens in this country.

Look at the NHS reforms. Nobody voted for them. Cameron and Lansley KNEW that if they announced what they were planning before the election, they would be roundly beaten. And so they kept it secret. Now, when polls say that 73% of voters oppose the use of private companies in the NHS, and 62% of voters do not trust the Tories on the NHS, when they are opposed by many health organisations (Royal College of GPs, Royal College of Nurses, Royal College of Midwives, Royal College of physiotherapists, and the list goes on and on) - their solution is to shut the door on them, and to exclude them from any further discussions.

How is this democracy? Most people DON'T WANT the reforms. Most medical people DON'T WANT the reforms. Even half the government DON'T WANT the reforms. And yet, because Cameron and Lansley want them, this is what is going to happen. Cameron said 'No more top-down reorganisation of the NHS'.

Then we have Michael Gove imposing his 'ban on termtime holidays'. Is it not up to parents to decide how to bring up their children? Has he forgotten that it is not 'his' country, to rule as he wishes, but all of our country.

Even on the economy, we have no democratic say. At the last election, there were 2 distinct approaches. The Labour way, and the LibDem way was to halve the deficit over 4-5 years. The Conservative way was to cut savagely and to eliminate the deficit in 5 years. Although elections are rarely fought on one issue, I think in the extraordinary situation of 2010, it would be fair to say that the economy was the over-riding issue, and if ever an election was mono-issue, it was that one.

The first solution, of shallower cuts received about 15.4 million votes. The second solution of savage cuts received 10.7 million votes.

So we get the second option.

The Lib Dems campaigned on a ticket of 'pledging to oppose ANY rise in tution fees'. In government, they are trebling the tuition fees.

David Cameron before the election said he 'liked child benefit being a universal benefit'. He said 'I LIKE child benefit, I WOULDN'T CHANGE child benefit'.

Now he is abolishing child benefit for some in an unfair and incompetent slash at families.

They are liars, and buy votes through lies, and then do whatever the hell they want. We should be able to force an election and actually hold politicians to account. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a fascist dictatorship.

when was it ever a democracy? Could a cild on a council estate make it anymore to Cabinet? I doubt it.

In the past, definitely. Alan Johnson grew up on a council estate, brought up by his sister.

Now? No Chance.

But it's very rare surely that there are MPs in the Tory Party who grew up on a council estate?

If there are, I haven't heard of them but am happy to be corrected.

They seem to be overwhelmingly wealthy and privately educated. Which is not a bad thing in itself but just seems worrying that so many in our ruling party are of this ilk.

Do they even understand the issues for the great unwashed?

Unfortunately this is democracy.

All the people who voted Conservative are responsible for this. All the people who voted Lib Dem are responsible for this.

I think they need to change whatever it is that needs to be changed so that governments are held to what they say during elections. I know that the two parties we have in at the moment would both have to compromise, but that doesn't explain what is happening at the moment.

They use the excuse that they didn't know how bad the situation was until they came into government, and thats why they need to be so drastic with the cuts, but they should know. Why don't they know?

And why can't we force them to stand by their own words that got them elected intel first place?

You're confusing direct democracy with representative democracy. You have the latter but you think you should have the former.

You got the government the majority of your citizens voted for. Blame them too.

This government was voted in according to the rules. We can vote them out again. That makes this country a democracy. If you don't like the result you have to suck it up until the next election. That's the deal. There is no better deal on offer anywhere else on the planet, but there are many that are worse.

but they didn't platform on these issues did they? So it's not accurate to say it's the voters fault

I agree kitchenroll. Election manifestos should be legaly binding. And they do know, the all sit on inter-party committees on all issues.
Mark Thomas's 'The People's Manifesto' is great

i dont think we have the govt that the majority of our citizens voted for at all.

as an aside

i really hate the Tories. i dispise them with ever fibre of my being.

but the lib dems betrayed me, the back stabbing weak willed spineless bastards, they have destroyed any chance of ever getting in again in the next 100 years.

i have nothing but contempt for the lib dems and hatred for the Tories.

Grow up.

Look at it from the other side.

Why are the health unions (because that is what the Royal Colleges are) opposing the reforms? They are opposing them because it will not be good for them. The NHS is a bottomless pit - it is also one of two depts who have not faced cuts under this govt.The NHS is one of the three largest employers on the planet - can you explain why we need this number of personnel for what is a relatively small land mass? HM Forces have absorbed huge cuts, but just get on with it, the NHS whinges.

The UK is a a hole financially - the only reason we are keeping our AAA rating is because of the cuts. We couldn't afford to keep up with the policies under Blair, Brown and Balls of rapidly expanding the welfare state and creating a client state (which reading some of the posts on MN they have done very successfully).

Gove is right to ban holidays in term time; it affects the educational progress of children and is a complete pain in the arse for teachers...parents email wanting either two weeks work which aren't yet planned in detail, or want you to email work done and take the time to get their kids caught up when they swan back from two weeks wherever. I was paid to teach them when they are there -not when they choose not to be there (exception for kids off sick/bereavement etc).

I don't like the rise in tuition fees and will do whatever I can to avoid ds coming out of uni with debt, but it may mean that some of the non degrees that people have done in the past few years may fold, and the focus may come back to solid academic degrees. It will also hopefully mean that those who can't academically cope at uni think twice about going, as 50% of the school population aren't academically able to cope with it.

I don't like the child benefit change either, but would be losing it from 2014 anyway when ds leaves sixth form, so losing it 18 months early won't kill me. I think they need to apply the rules fairly which I don't think has been done in this case, but I suspect it's a sop to the Lib Dem numptys who don't like the populace being HRTs, whereas it is all right for them (and especially Clegg on his EU money).

They are liars...moot point. I don't think they realised the state of things until they got in and saw the books. Imagine having to claw back a vast overdraft rather quickly, otherwise the bank would be after you and everything you had; whilst also trying to pay your daily bills and maintain your standard of living. Bit of a balancing act methinks, and if we'd find it hard on a domestic basis, then what must it be like on a national one?

I would rather the Tories alone than the Coalition, but would rather the Coalition than Labour, who were liars and charlatans to the core.

I was just looking at the news reports of Cameron banning anyone who opposes the NHS cuts from todays meeting .

Probably because he'd have to hire Wembly Stadium if he wanted to get all the objectors in too.

How exactly then did you get a governement with a minority of the votes? Did someone count wrong?

Some of the professional bodies are unions. Others aren't. Every doctor I know is against the reform. Every patient I know is against the reform. In the country most voters are against the reform (which we will have to pay for). And we haven't been asked.

I don't regard this as the government we voted for. In our area, the LibDems campaigned on a ticket of 'A LibDem vote is the only way to keep the Tories out'. Our seat is a 3-way marginal, and they did their very best to play on 'fear of the Tories', suggesting that a vote for Labour was wasted, and the only way to keep the Tories out of Government was voting LibDem.

It makes me sick.

Of course it's the voters fault! The Conservative party hasn't been hiding it's attitudes! They are idealogically opposed to the state provision of services. They have taken every opportunity in the past to privatise state companies and bring private companies into the state sector.They were never going to be safe in control of the NHS.

The Lib Dems will agree with anything that gets them a seat at the top table. Look at the way they behave in local councils around the country - they'll side with labour or the conservatives if it gets them into a governing majority.

Where are the Conservative voters clamouring for Cameron to drop his NHS plans? Where are the Lib Dem voters telling Clegg that they'll drop them for good if they stand by and let this happen?

MildlyNarkyPuffin - the LibDem voters VOTED THE REFORMS OUT at the last LibDem conference.

The Tory CABINET are starting to oppose the reforms.

PeppyNephrine - it's because the Tories didn't win a majority, and then the LibDems decided to throw every principle they ever pretended to have down the toilet in order to get a whiff of power. I despise them.

Thank you ScaryTeacher for illustrating the Tory voter view.

scaryteacher - you have used the Thatcherite principle of comparing a country's economy to a household budget. Doesn't work. They're completely different animals.

She was fond of comparing them, but they are not comparable. As a quick example, a country's economy depends on growth, and if you cut too much spending, you cut the growth, and so your deficit gets bigger. In a household, this wouldn't happen. The only comparison I could see would be if you decided to save money on fuel bills by not going to work....

Of course they knew what state the country was in. In fact, they over-egged it massively - most economists are now of the view that they exaggerated the problems to give themselves a mandate for cuts. And in fact, a lot of the flat-lining economy could be put down to Osborne's talking down of the economy and scaring people into not spending.

This is what frightens me - we have a non-elected government that has questionable ideology, and staggering incompetence (the child benefit debacle is a perfect example of this).

I'm with scaryteacher on this one.

And just because a reform isn't popular doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do in the long term.

I had a very brief flirtation with liking the Lib Dems in the 90s. Then I found out how they behaved. They distributed leaflets designed to play on racist fears to get votes in areas of London. They have no core - they do or say whatever is necessary to get votes. Yes, all parties do this to a degree, but no others swing as far along the political spectrum to hoover up votes. If they can't even come up with a coherent position before they're in power how can anyone trust them?

Thankgodforcaffeine - I get that, and actually I do agree, sort of.

But.

I don't think it should be LEGAL for a government to be just-about-elected, on a ticket of 'Our priority is the NHS, WE WILL STOP ALL THIS POINTLESS REORGANISATION', 'NO MORE TOP-DOWN REORGANISATION' - then within a few weeks of getting into number 10, launch the biggest top-down reorganisation in the NHS' history.

That's not democracy. It's lies.

I felt that when Iraq was illegally invaded in our name