Do we no longer live in a democracy?

[LilyBolero]

The United Kingdom purports to be a democracy. And yet, the people of this country have no say in what happens in this country.

Look at the NHS reforms. Nobody voted for them. Cameron and Lansley KNEW that if they announced what they were planning before the election, they would be roundly beaten. And so they kept it secret. Now, when polls say that 73% of voters oppose the use of private companies in the NHS, and 62% of voters do not trust the Tories on the NHS, when they are opposed by many health organisations (Royal College of GPs, Royal College of Nurses, Royal College of Midwives, Royal College of physiotherapists, and the list goes on and on) - their solution is to shut the door on them, and to exclude them from any further discussions.

How is this democracy? Most people DON'T WANT the reforms. Most medical people DON'T WANT the reforms. Even half the government DON'T WANT the reforms. And yet, because Cameron and Lansley want them, this is what is going to happen. Cameron said 'No more top-down reorganisation of the NHS'.

Then we have Michael Gove imposing his 'ban on termtime holidays'. Is it not up to parents to decide how to bring up their children? Has he forgotten that it is not 'his' country, to rule as he wishes, but all of our country.

Even on the economy, we have no democratic say. At the last election, there were 2 distinct approaches. The Labour way, and the LibDem way was to halve the deficit over 4-5 years. The Conservative way was to cut savagely and to eliminate the deficit in 5 years. Although elections are rarely fought on one issue, I think in the extraordinary situation of 2010, it would be fair to say that the economy was the over-riding issue, and if ever an election was mono-issue, it was that one.

The first solution, of shallower cuts received about 15.4 million votes. The second solution of savage cuts received 10.7 million votes.

So we get the second option.

The Lib Dems campaigned on a ticket of 'pledging to oppose ANY rise in tution fees'. In government, they are trebling the tuition fees.

David Cameron before the election said he 'liked child benefit being a universal benefit'. He said 'I LIKE child benefit, I WOULDN'T CHANGE child benefit'.

Now he is abolishing child benefit for some in an unfair and incompetent slash at families.

They are liars, and buy votes through lies, and then do whatever the hell they want. We should be able to force an election and actually hold politicians to account. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a fascist dictatorship.

ttosca I hardly think we can compare our voting system with China's, do you?

Exactly, Hilly. Clegg could easily have played the yah boo role, but he lnows how serious the predicament of teh country is and that is why he is doing everything he can to work towards a resolution of the problem. All the yah booers are giving him stick in the manner of the biggest yah booer of all, the puppet Punch. But he takes the jibes for the good of the nation, and I think there is no doubt that the Coalition will win next time. The public always boo Punch.

Well I meant the voters, Claig but I get your point. I sometimes wonder why NC took this poisoned chalice, and didn't just sit back and let Dave get on with it by himself, then pick up the mantle in four years time, when the worst bit of the job had been done, and everyone hated his guts! Like screaming at the doctor that has to amputate your limb without anaesthetic by the roadside, so you don't bleed to death.

Except in this case, it's not a limb, but the NHS, welfare, public services, workers rights, etc. In short, anything which makes a country vaguely civilised and not based on brutality.

Even the children of the nation boo Punch. Thank God for democracy.

ttosca I hardly think we can compare our voting system with China's, do you?

Try to follow the logical argument.

The simple fact that people voted doesn't mean that we live in a democracy. Democracy has to be meaningful. It parties make promises and then do the exact opposite, with no mandate, and furthermore against the wishes of the majority of the public, like what the Tories are doing with the NHS, then we have a problem with democracy.

Even the children of the nation boo Punch. Thank God for democracy.

?

Have you taken your medication, Claig?

The only thing I have taken is a strong coffee after I tried your "logical argument". But I am afraid it is still no clearer.

The great thing about democracy is that you have a chance to kick them out if you disagree with what they do. You have to wait 5 years and then you can have a say with the rest of the population. You can vote on their record. If the public agree with you then they will be voted out, just as Labour lost their majority this time round.

Yeah, isn't it great? You can then vote in the other team, who will also avoid talking about important issues which they fear will harm their electoral chances, who will also make pledges which they renounce when they're in office, who will also take the country to an illegal and immoral war, and who will also institute policies for which they have no mandate and no public support.

Rinse and repeat.

But the world is not perfect, there is no socialist utopia and utopias are always necessarily dystopias.

Form your own party and offer a different platform or work with Labour to try to steer their policy in the direction you believe is the best. You are a free agent in a free country, but the people are free to reject your opinions and vote for an alternative.

That is democracy. It is not perfect, and you won't always get your way, but it always beats tyranny.

Can you try to talk without relying on cliches?

It's not 'utopian' to expect meaningful democracy. It's both a right, and perfectly reasonable.

Gotta go.

'Can you try to talk without relying on cliches?'

I'm sorry, but I have to refer to your quotes.

Ttosca - I think that removing the 10% tax rate from the poorest was fairly cynical; I don't think the poorest in society are going to be left without a safety net, but simplifying the benefit system has to be a good thing. It will hopefully make accessing it easier and make it easier to understand as well. I think your derogatory comments however make you seem childish.

As for what's happening to Greece, I think I mentioned what was going on there far earlier in the thread. If the govt in the UK doesn't get hold of the debt and doesn't stick to the austerity measures laid out, then that is where the UK will end up, after some of the major European countries have toppled like Belgium and France. The only reason that the Greek problem is being pushed down the road is to buy time for the French and German banks to rid themselves of Greek holdings and to make sure they are stabilised. It will be interesting to see if the Greeks go for a democratic solution at the polls, or if the Military decide to take matters into their own hands.

I can't comment on the quality of life in France, but same shit, different place applies to Belgium. I can't say that the bank and some shops shutting for lunch enhances my quality of life, or that some shops are shut on a Monday because they have been open on a Saturday. The level of bureaucracy is astounding and seems to be about creating non-jobs rather than necessary ones. The employment laws seem archaic (difficult to sack anyone) and the practice of 13th and 14th month payments still occurs. It is very expensive to live here, and I go back to UK to shop whenever I get the opportunity (things like electronics, cheese, butter, clothes, shoes etc).

scaryteacher because I agree with everything you say and it's refreshing to see someone argue solidly against the standard pro-labour tory-hating guardianista liberal-elite MN spirit.

Meh. Democracy like all regimes starts off good and then starts going bad after the honeymoon period.

Hitler was democratic and fair at the beginning before turning murderous half way through. Modern politics is based on that same "bait and switch" principle.

Politicians are simply men with not enough brains and contacts to be good capitalists and run corporations. So instead lease their positions of power to those who can pay them and their backers handsomely.

The NHS, public transport, banks and public in general are now being sold up the river at a profit to those at the top.