To think some posters need a "reality check" re. views on benefit changes

[lesley33]

I have some concerns about some of the proposed changes to benefits and how these may adversely affect people. So this is NOT a thread about that. But I am getting increasingly fed up at some of the frankly ridiculous reasons some posters are giving against the proposed changes. Examples include:

1. That children 12 and over will be traumatised if both parents work - even if second parent only works 20 hours a week.

1. That a parent with children 12 and over shouldn't have to commute up to 90 minutes each way to work. Far from ideal I know and if someone is on low wages this might not be affordable. But perfectly doable.

1. That childcare is impossible to get for teenagers. Ignoring the fact that many parents, myself included use a combination of kids home alone and afterschool activities.

AIBU to think some people need a reality check? Plenty of people with children already work, many with both parents working full time by the time their kids are teenagers. Plenty of people have long commutes, struggle with childcare, etc. Things might not be "ideal", but these are things that many many working parents already do.

(i know this isnt a total solution but it is another side to the view of employers wont look at disabled people)

Its not just the rabid right wingers that have got it wrong.
Perfectly nice, reasonable posters are not getting it because they cannot bring themselves to believe that Horrible Things will happen to genuine claiments.

Because they believe in the welfare state and trust that their country will look after those who need help and support those who need support.

That doesnt make them stupid.

The things that are going on do begger belief. They really do.
People in comas being passed fit to work.
Uncurable illnesses being pronounce cured by non medical admin staff with the stroke of a biro on a form.
Children classed as high needs suddenly being at the same level of need as their peers.
Therapies that if a child missed a year ago, the DNA (did not attend) could be used as part of a Child Protection Plan, now withdrawn as unecessary.
Cancer patients being forced to prove they cant work (who the hell would employ someone on treatment with a crap prognosis?)

Those of us involved personally and/or professionally see this stuff. I tell people but the cannot believe.
My mum worked in HR for years and years. When I told her (I work in public sector) that my period of notice had been changed to one week, without consultation and the first I had heard was via letter, she said 'they cant do that'

They can, they have and that is just a tiny example of what is going on all over the sector.
I realise that is slightly off on a tangent but I work with the youngest disabled children and their families.

Its not just about my job, its about the services my job provides and all that goes alongside.

They do mean us, Porto. Only last week loopsylou said that all disabled people should be starved to death on their 19th birthday. You might be able to block out those opinions but I can't.

'Which is why i have problems with people in council housing for the rest of their lives.'

The thing is though, you take away the incentive to better yourself if you take away the home for life (council homes). In addition, a person may be on 40K a year but have massive debts. Or their job may be insecure, they may have something progressive such as MS or be unable to simply get a mortgage. As has been said, a person may have spent thousands making it livable (some of them are in a shocking state when people move in). Of course there is also the issue that not many average earners can afford to buy a house now.

mathanxiety excellent post
'The disengagement shows that once a society starts on the downhill slide towards valuing people only for what they can contribute, damage is done that may be irreparable. In British society at the moment, open season has been declared on the 'non-productive'.'

My friend is a lone parent of two primary aged children. Since her youngest was 7, the job centre have hounded her to go to numerous interviews and expected her to be all over the place at silly times. This same friend has volunteered at school and in charity places for the last few years and is looking for paid work of the sort she could manage on top of sole parenting, sole everything in the household person, ill health etc. Her voluntary work EVERY day is helping the community so why can't she carry on doing that? It costs the Gov much more money to pay her childcare and wage top ups so that she can be in 'paid work'. So I think voluntary should be allow (school hours or p/t) while kids are primary age. It would be good work experience too and help inprove confidence.

I wonder whether austerity measures are going to be enough.Is it just postponing the inevitable?
I wonder how far we really are from financial collapse, currency becoming worthless.No food in the shops , no oil,no public services,civil unrest,anarchy .The worrying thing is no-one can answer this because the world has never been in this situation before.
A guy last night said the only hope would be to 'hit the reset button' cancel all debt whether commercial, government or private.and statrt afresh.I don't know whether this would work as surely it would just lead to a run on the banks and them collapsing anyway.The only positive is that we are not tied into the rest of Europe.

i think the biggest issue facing the welfare state is the national debt.

we need £2k per UK household just to pay the interest on it. & we keep paying the £2k every year until the size of it is reduced.

if the debt has been managed better in the past, the cuts might not even be on the agenda.

We pay more per household on debt interest than we pay for the NHS - which is frankly crazy

dande I am an out and our optimist...some would say a Pollyanna , but the economy is one area I feel very very anxious about.

When I see the Labour party and the unions trying to block each and every cut back, I have a tighteneing in my stomach, that they don't seem to accept how precarious things are.

We are very reliant upon Europe for our exports and what is currently happening is worrying to say the least. Even Germany are now saying that Greece may not be able to be saved. And if they go, will the whole edifice topple? And if it does what will happen to our GDP?

I'm no Tory btw.
But I know enough economists to realise that we are on the edge of a precipice here. Soon we may not be argiung about how much benfits are going to fall by, we might be fidning out we can't raise the money or borrow it for any benefits at all.

It is a very frightening time. I was young in the 80's and tbh everything seems much more precarious this time around. I don't think a lot of people understand how precarious and tough things are at the moment.

I think there is a collective refusal to believe how tricky the situation is.
And a collective refusal to see what our poor DC are going to inherit.

"I'm afraid to tell you that there's no money left" : Liam Byrne, (Labour) Ex- Chief Secretary to the Treasury's note to his successor, May 2010.

It does make me very afraid for my DCs and for me in my old age.

wordfactory, lesley and Tilly I am in agreement with you there. For the first time in my own life and looking at our current economy as part of post-war history, I believe it's possible that the whole global economy could collapse. The conditions are such that we could see a perfect storm of financial events that separately could be overcome but together could change the face of the world.

It is very worrying, I agree. However, as all businesses know, sometimes the only way to reduce a shortfall is to spend in order to create growth, and that's where I believe this current government has gone wrong.

i think that people are much more 'in it together' than is currently accepted.

homeowners think they have gained over the last few years. take off your share of the debt & suddenly it doesnt look the same.

you are a tory = MN language for 'i disagree with you' or 'i dont like what you are saying'

Agree about the "you are a tory ="

Agree tilly

Agree too.

I've just seen that my local council is borrowing 74 Million pounds over 50 years to spend on housing stock, building and refurbishing council properties.

What a huge debt to take on at this time while the economy is teetering on the brink of collapse.

sunshine sometimes you do have to spend to grow your business it's true.

But you have to be very canny on what you spend. You don't just keep on with all your ususal outgoings and then just borrow more on top for a referb or whatever. You carefuly cut all your costs and outgoing to bare minumum and then take a decision to invest in somehting that will specifically grow your business.

So applying that to UK plc, I agree that an investment spending program properly targeted may well help the economy. However, it would have had to be have been done hnad in hand with cut backs. I htik the credut agencies would even have been cool with that as a plan. But no party dared advocate that.

But simply leaving our public sector spending in tact and borrowing on top for investment: suicide vis a vis our credit ratings.

And therein lies the rub for any Keynsian out there. He formulated his theories prior to the dreaded credit agencies....

the idea of govt over spending during the bad times is really sensible if you reduce the debt during the good times (which also has the good side effect of curbing a boom before it overheats).

but overspending in the good times, housing boom, then over spending it the bad times, is completely different.

if you think the solution is to go further into debt, how much more than £35K per working person should we go?

NY Times article here about risks of cutting too much when growth isn't what it should be, with some pretty worrying quotes from Christine Lagarde et al.

I didn't see it, but wasn't there a documentary on the other week featuring an interview with a Japanese minister about Japan's handling of their own economic crisis? Apparently they concluded that cutting too fast, too deep, was harmful and only now they are spending and investing are things improving.

tbh when friends spout on about the double dip recession and how the Government is cutting public spending too fast for the economy, I don't tend to say anything. I think how much the cuts should be and where any money should be invested for growth is an incredibly difficult judgement call. And I honestly don't believe that amateurs like most of us on here, can make a judgement call based on what we read various experts have said and our own prejudices/political beliefs.

That doesn't mean that I think the Government have got it right. I just feel I don't know if they have got it right or wrong - if you know what I mean.