Too Many Cuts...come join the #Frothers and have your say

[AnyFuckerForAMincePie]

This is the 3rd thread in a series.

It is for people who are horrified, frustrated and downright sad at the erosion of human rights with respect to how this country is being run, just now and in the recent past

it is apolitical in nature, but of course due to many recent initiatives by the recent govt, there will be rants against our current "leaders"

please join in

I shall post the link to the old threads, our "Too Many Cuts #Frothers" blog that is attracting a lot of widespread attention and a little bit of what we are about in a moment

If they did work for 55 hours at NMW, they would earn approx £330/week. So the Uc would be reduced to a maximum top-up by the state of c £170/week.

Or have I got totally the wrong end of the stick?

Signing in.

I have been absent. I apologise. Have had Ofsted. It went really, really well..

You have all been doing good work and I applaud you. I'm still working my way through the thread.

Universal Credit spelt out

A Lone Parent, with one child age 3yo, who works for 20 Hours a week, over 3 days, for NMW (£6.08/hr). The Lone parent in this scenario does not have to pay Tax or NI as her earnings are on the threshold of £121.60/wk.

If we assume this Lone Parent is living in the SE, and is paying rent on a 2-bed HA house of £120/wk, and her Nursery fees are £50 a day. However, this Lone Parent is allowed to use 3 of her Nursery vouchers towards the cost of the nursery place ? which will take off £15 a day. But they only get the vouchers for 38 weeks each year.

Under the current Tax Credits system, the Lone parent would get:

CTC - £258.33
WTC - £322.50
ChB - £87.97
HB - £520.00
WTC childcare element - £355.25
Earnings - £526.93

A sum total of £2,070.98 p/cm

Under the new Universal Credit system, the Lone parent would get:

Earnings - £526.93
UC personal allowance - £292.50
UC 1 dependent child - £212.92
UC Housing - £520.00
UC Childcare - £355.25

Maximum earnings disregard for a Lone parent with one child will be £750.00 p/cm. For any earnings over the earnings disregard, 65p in every £1 will be deducted from the UC.

Also, if there are housing costs included in the UC, the maximum earnings disregard will be reduced by 1.5 times whatever those housing costs are. The minimum earnings disregard for a Lone parent is £231.67 p/cm. The lone Parent will get whichever disregard is higher ? the one after housing costs, or the minimum, as the disregard will not go below the minimum for that circumstance.

Now it gets complicated...1.5 times the housing is £780.00. Which is greater than the maximum earnings disregard of £750.00. So this Lone Parent gets the minimum earnings disregard of £231.67.

£526.93 (earnings) - £231.67 (min disregard) = £295.26

£295.26 / 100 = 2.9526 x 65 = £191.92

So 65% of her earnings OVER her earnings disregard is £191.92. That is how much her UC will be reduced by.

Maximum UC is £1,380.67. Less 65% of the earnings OVER the disregard leaves £1,188.75.

Total UC - £1,188.75

PLUS earnings - £1,715.68

Which will leave that Lone Parent getting £2,070.98 - £1,188.75 = £882.23 LESS p/cm Under UC than TC?s.

I have calculated all figures as per calendar month, as that is the frequency that Universal Credit will be paid at.

Did you read that the Lone Parent in this scenario will be £882.23 pcm WORSE OFF ?

I must be winning on the other thread. They have resorted to quoting posts out of context and insulting my intelligence.

Twats 0 KF 1

ha !

Breadandbutterfly - you don't have to be working at all to claim UC. BUT if you are a couple, then either one person in that couple needs to be earning £1,449.06 pcm gross, or both partners need to earn that pcm as a combined income - or they will face sanctions of their UC - which range from a 3-month loss of UC to a 3-YEAR loss of UC. Oh - and if you aren't earning £1,449.06 pcm gross - they can make you do 'Mandatory Work Activity' (Workfare). Even if you are already employed...

If you don't earn enough - you're going to be a SLAVE for Mr. Tesco...

Is UC personal allowance, WTC?

Is UC dependant child, CTC?

Hunty, Monthly sounds good, as long as it is made clearly the calculations are Monthly. It is very good of you to do all of this.

Can I clear this up.

Every household is given up to £500 per week or £2,000 per month maximum Universal credit - That is a maximum figure, and you would have to have 3+ dc to get that much.

The universal credit can be used to pay for things like CTC, CB, DLA and WTC amongst others such as HB, JSA, ESA. As long as you don't go over the upper limit, you can keep your part time earnings, which must be a minimum of 20 hours a week earning, it doesn't matter how much you earn in those 20 hours - UC covers IS/JSA/ESA/CTC/WTC/HB/WTC childcare element. It doesn't include DLA. It's more personalised than you are thinking with the earnings etc. If you want me to do a personal calculation, I'm happy to - but PM me the figures, then I will PM the results? Will that help?

PIP will relace DLA, and if you are currently on lower or middle rate DLA you will no longer get anything for that, you only get help for high rate DLA? Is the DLA included or excluded from the UC? - You will only qualify for PIP if you are on HRC as far as I can make out. DLA is NOT included in the UC cap. They don't think that PIP will be, but nothing is concrete there yet

Is CSA excluded from UC? - Finding conflicting information on that one, some places say it isn't deducted from UC, some places say it is. I am liable to go with that it isn't, for NOW

Does that answer your questions, Themouse?

TheMouse - UC personal allowance is set at the level for a single adult over 25 on JSA. Which is £67.50/wk, or £292.50 pcm.

UC dependant child is just the CHILD element of WTC, as the family element is going when it changes to UC, saving £545 a year for the Government.

Thank you so much for explaining that, it has made things a lot clearer to me.

Universal Credit spelt out

A Lone Parent, with two children aged 2yo and 3yo, who works for 20 Hours a week, over 3 days, for NMW (£6.08/hr). The Lone parent in this scenario does not have to pay Tax or NI as her earnings are on the threshold of £121.60/wk.

If we assume this Lone Parent is living in the SE, and is paying rent on a 2-bed HA house of £120/wk, and her Nursery fees are £50 a day per child. However, this Lone Parent is allowed to use 3 of her Nursery vouchers for the 3yo towards the cost of the nursery place ? which will take off £15 a day. But they only get the vouchers for 38 weeks each year. The total childcare fees are £1,157.50pcm.

Under the current Tax Credits system, the Lone parent would get:

CTC - £258.33
WTC - £322.50
ChB - £146.03
HB - £520.00
WTC childcare element - £810.25
Earnings - £526.93

A total of £2,584.04

Under the new Universal Credit system, the Lone parent would get:

Earnings - £526.93
UC personal allowance - £292.50
UC 2 dependent children - £425.84
UC Housing - £520.00
UC Childcare - £810.25

Maximum earnings disregard for a Lone parent with two children will be £750.00 p/cm. For any earnings over the earnings disregard, 65p in every £1 will be deducted from the UC. Also, if there are housing costs included in the UC, the maximum earnings disregard will be reduced by 1.5 times whatever those housing costs are. The minimum earnings disregard for a Lone parent with two children is £253.33 p/cm. The lone Parent will get whichever disregard is higher ? the one after housing costs, or the minimum, as the disregard will not go below the minimum for that circumstance.
Now it gets complicated...1.5 times the housing is £780.00. Which is greater than the maximum earnings disregard of £750.00. So this Lone Parent gets the minimum earnings disregard of £253.33.

£526.93 (earnings) - £253.33 (min disregard) = £273.60

£273.60 / 100 = 2.736 x 65 = £177.84

So 65% of her earnings OVER her earnings disregard is £177.84. That is how much her UC will be reduced by.

Maximum UC is £2,048.59. Which is still under the £2,166.67 p/cm cap. Less 65% of the earnings OVER the disregard leaves £1,870.75.

Total UC - £1,870.75

PLUS earnings - £2,397.68

Which will leave that Lone Parent getting £2,584.04 - £2,397.68 = £186.36 LESS p/cm Under UC than TC?s.

Which isn't HALF as bad as the previous scenario - I may have to check the figures in that first one again...

Might be the childcare? Can't SEE a problem with the first calculation?

Hunty is the CTC missing from the uc calculations?

That would be because there ISN'T a problem with it...Fuuuuuuuuck. I have double and triple checked the calculations. How does THAT work then? £882.23 worse off for the Lone parent with ONE dc in Nursery, yet 'only' £186.36 worse off for the Lone parent with TWO dc in Nursery??

I'm going to double check the figures on the second one now...Surely one of them HAS to be wrong?

Universal Credit spelt out

A Lone Parent, with two children aged 2yo and 3yo, who works for 20 Hours a week, over 3 days, for NMW (£6.08/hr). The Lone parent in this scenario does not have to pay Tax or NI as her earnings are on the threshold of £121.60/wk.

If we assume this Lone Parent is living in the SE, and is paying rent on a 2-bed HA house of £120/wk, and her Nursery fees are £50 a day per child. However, this Lone Parent is allowed to use 3 of her Nursery vouchers for the 3yo towards the cost of the nursery place ? which will take off £15 a day. But they only get the vouchers for 38 weeks each year. The total childcare fees are £1,157.50pcm.

Under the current Tax Credits system, the Lone parent would get:

CTC - £258.33
WTC - £322.50
ChB - £146.03
HB - £520.00
WTC childcare element - £810.25
Earnings - £526.93

A total of £2,584.04

Under the new Universal Credit system, the Lone parent would get:

Extra childcare vouchers for the 2yo to have £15 off a day.

Earnings - £526.93
UC personal allowance - £292.50
UC 2 dependent children - £425.84
UC Housing - £520.00
UC Childcare - £710.50

Maximum earnings disregard for a Lone parent with two children will be £750.00 p/cm. For any earnings over the earnings disregard, 65p in every £1 will be deducted from the UC. Also, if there are housing costs included in the UC, the maximum earnings disregard will be reduced by 1.5 times whatever those housing costs are. The minimum earnings disregard for a Lone parent with two children is £253.33 p/cm. The lone Parent will get whichever disregard is higher ? the one after housing costs, or the minimum, as the disregard will not go below the minimum for that circumstance.

Now it gets complicated...1.5 times the housing is £780.00. Which is greater than the maximum earnings disregard of £750.00. So this Lone Parent gets the minimum earnings disregard of £253.33.

£526.93 (earnings) - £253.33 (min disregard) = £273.60

£273.60 / 100 = 2.736 x 65 = £177.84

So 65% of her earnings OVER her earnings disregard is £177.84. That is how much her UC will be reduced by.

Maximum UC is £1,948.84. Which is still under the £2,166.67 p/cm UC cap.
Less 65% of the earnings OVER the disregard leaves £1,771.00.

Total UC - £1,771.00

PLUS earnings - £2,297.93

Which will leave that Lone Parent getting £2,584.04 - £2,297.93 = £286.11 LESS p/cm Under UC than TC?s.

I had forgotten about the childcare vouchers for 2yo's that people on UC will get. Which actually leaves this Lone Parent WORSE off than if she hadn't got those vouchers. It's to do with the percentage thing for the child element. 70% of £100 is more than 70% of £50 - so if the vouchers cut down the childcare costs overall, they also cut down what 70% of the childcare costs are.

Fuck this is complex. And they reckon this system is LESS complex than TC's? MY ARSE!

I'm just using figures from the SE - these calculations might take me all week, with all the different permutations!!

I will just do one more tonight, as I have a hamster cage to clean.

I'll try to get as many done as I can tomorrow though.

Hunty, I wouldn't be able to work that calculation out at all, you most definatly are not fick! do you hear me woman! do your hampster cage, and if you have time do the calculation, then get some sleep!

night x

thank you for doing this

Universal Credit spelt out

A Lone Parent, with two children aged 3yo and 5yo, who works for 20 Hours a week, over 3 days, for NMW (£6.08/hr). The Lone parent in this scenario does not have to pay Tax or NI as her earnings are on the threshold of £121.60/wk.

If we assume this Lone Parent is living in the SE, and is paying rent on a 2-bed HA house of £120/wk, and her Nursery fees are £50 a day per child. However, this Lone Parent is allowed to use 3 of her Nursery vouchers for the 3yo towards the cost of the nursery place ? which will take off £15 a day. But they only get the vouchers for 38 weeks each year. This lone parent also has to pay £18 a day for after-school club for the 5yo, and £40 a day for holiday club for the 5yo during school holidays. The total childcare fees are £861.00 p/cm.

Under the current Tax Credits system, the Lone parent would get:

CTC - £258.33
WTC - £322.50
ChB - £146.03
HB - £520.00
WTC childcare element - £502.95
Earnings - £526.93

A total of £2,276.74

Under the new Universal Credit system, the Lone parent would get:

Earnings - £526.93
UC personal allowance - £292.50
UC 2 dependent children - £425.84
UC Housing - £520.00
UC Childcare - £502.95

Maximum earnings disregard for a Lone parent with two children will be £750.00 p/cm. For any earnings over the earnings disregard, 65p in every £1 will be deducted from the UC. Also, if there are housing costs included in the UC, the maximum earnings disregard will be reduced by 1.5 times whatever those housing costs are. The minimum earnings disregard for a Lone parent with two children is £253.33 p/cm. The lone Parent will get whichever disregard is higher ? the one after housing costs, or the minimum, as the disregard will not go below the minimum for that circumstance.

Now it gets complicated...1.5 times the housing is £780.00. Which is greater than the maximum earnings disregard of £750.00. So this Lone Parent gets the minimum earnings disregard of £253.33.

£526.93 (earnings) - £253.33 (min disregard) = £273.60

£273.60 / 100 = 2.736 x 65 = £177.84

So 65% of her earnings OVER her earnings disregard is £177.84. That is how much her UC will be reduced by.

Maximum UC is £1,741.29. Which is still under the £2,166.67 p/cm UC cap. Less 65% of the earnings OVER the disregard leaves £1,563.45.

Total UC - £1,563.45.

PLUS earnings - £2,090.38

Which will leave that Lone Parent getting £2,276.74 - £2,090.38 = £186.36 LESS p/cm Under UC than TC?s.

For tonight - That's all folks! (at least on the mind numbing numbers). I will do more tomorrow, with a fresh head.

I will happily do personal calculations by PM if you would like to scare yourself shitless though...

Yes, thanks from me too, Hunty. You're one in a million.

Totally failed to calm myself down enough for sleep. Should have taken a pill but, hey - too late now.
I wrote a new blog post that may possibly be a bit ranty.
Feedback?

Having read all through this thread, I have to say I'm staggered at the attitude of entitlement presented by many posters.
I'll keep this as brief and to the point as possible - is it not the responsibility of the individual to attempt to support themselves and any children they may have?

With regard to the oft quoted point that the minimum wage is not enough to live on - it is possible to live on, if you are very careful and this was always the case.

I am now 50. I was a single parent with one child in the 1980s. I worked for the NHS in a low paid job and lived in private rented accomodation until I was allocated a council house. Money was always tight as I had to run a car to get to work (I worked in a large hospital which was situated miles out in the sticks). For at least 10 years I had no social life, bought my clothes in charity shops, couldn't afford to run the central heating and shopped in the evening when foodstuffs were marked down.
So I took a second job to help pay the bills and run my car. I worked nights for years as I found childcare far more affordable if I paid friends/family members/students to sleep in my house overnight - more affordable than day care. I was run ragged for years, going to bed at 9.30am and getting up again at 2.45pm in order to do the school runs. I rarely got any sleep at weekends or on school holidays.
I also managed to study for a degree during those years and am now in a management position with the NHS.

But I survived and I don't look back at those years and see it as being all bad - and more importantly, nor does my son. He is now in his twenties, is happy, well adjusted and has a very successful career.

Throughout all those years I suffered from OCD (still do) and had a moderate social phobia, so could probably have gone 'on the sick' at any time. But I didn't.

You people whinging about benefits really need to get a grip.
Anyone in real, genuine need of benefits should receive them, no doubt about that. People who are genuinely unable to do anything, even sitting at a computer, stacking shelves or working in supported jobs should receive help.
But all those of you who are complaining about the minimum wage should do one of three things:

1. Take the low paid job on offer and work your way up the career ladder.
2. Campaign for a higher minimum wage and stricter controls on immigrant labour.
3. Resign yourself to doing two jobs to keep afloat.

Boffyflow - speaking as someone who fortunately has never needed to claim benefits - I don't think you can compare now to the 80s's. The cost of living is much higher compared to income - food, fuel, housing, etc. Childcare costs have rocketed. Minimum wage is not enough to cover childcare and also live on now, unless you get extra help. It doesn't make a difference whether you have one low paid job or five - you still need someone to look after your children while you work and not all of us are lucky enough to have family/friends/students who can step in and help. And how many people are now chasing these low paid jobs? I am fortunate enough to earn way over the average wage and I still have to watch every penny. I do not have an extravagant lifestyle - supermarket value brands and a ten year old car. However with a mortgage in the South East (can't sell so no option), childcare costs for two children and a massive fuel bill because the only work I can get that pays enough to cover my bills is fifty miles away we are often short at the end of the month. I am one of the lucky ones. It have no idea how people manage on a lower income, or on benefits. I'm pretty sure that soon many of them won't be managing and that thought terrifies me.
You are right, we should be campaigning for a higher minimum wage. Reference to immigrants is irrelevant, as they generally pay more in tax than we pay them in benefits (will track down the evidence for that one, can't remember where I saw the figures).

We should also be campaigning for more flexible working so that employers are offering jobs that fit around childcare, school hours etc to get more women working, paying tax and off benefits. However didn't this Government make some comments about higher minimum wage and flexible working being damaging to businesses, driving them away from the UK etc (that old chestnut) so not worth looking at?
Anyway, off to work now. Merry Christmas.

Boffy
Miaoow has put it better than I could, cause I am still frothing at your post.

You obviously haven't read this thread very well. There is not ONE parent on this thread demanding benefits so that they don't have to go to work. Most of them would love to if they could afford childcare to do so. And if they could get a job.

Not everyone is so fortunate that they can arrange private childcare with friends or family.

From Huntly's maths I can see a clear picture emerging.

1. Childcare care costs are more expensive than the income that can be earned during that time

1. High housing costs are a massive problem

1. Single parents will get by - just - but anyone who has a disability will be living in constant fear of being declared "fit for work" and having their benefits cut. What do you suggest they live on?

1. Second jobs are not that easy to come by at the moment when many cannot even find a first job

It is easy to look back and say, "Well, I managed so they should too", but can you not see how much more difficult it is now, with much higher cost of living?