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Politics

Too Many Cuts...come join the #Frothers and have your say

942 replies

AnyFuckerForAMincePie · 07/12/2011 21:23

This is the 3rd thread in a series.

It is for people who are horrified, frustrated and downright sad at the erosion of human rights with respect to how this country is being run, just now and in the recent past

it is apolitical in nature, but of course due to many recent initiatives by the recent govt, there will be rants against our current "leaders"

please join in

I shall post the link to the old threads, our "Too Many Cuts #Frothers" blog that is attracting a lot of widespread attention and a little bit of what we are about in a moment

OP posts:
CardyMow · 11/12/2011 19:55

Conditionality and the Work Programme
d) Carers who are in receipt of the carers element* will fall into the no conditionality group in Universal Credit. For other carers, different levels of conditionality may apply.
e) It is important to have flexibility for other carers who do not fall into the no conditionality group as their caring responsibilities may change from day to day. To ensure these carers receive the level of conditionality that is appropriate to their needs, it is envisaged that the same level of flexibility that is within the current systems will be incorporated into Universal Credit. Access to the Work Programme will depend on the carers conditionality group.

  • (again, my own notes) The only people who will be in recept of the carers element will be those that are caring for someone on HRC/HRM. Anyone else will be subject to at least some conditionality. More to follow.
SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan · 11/12/2011 19:55

oh thank god. i actually read it as 500pm and had visions of half the population out on the streets. obviously still awful for those who have exceptional enough circumstances to not be able to live on that but 2.25k is quite a lot of money.

i feel a bit awkward now as my feelings are torn.

are there many people on more than that in benefits a week??

garlicnutcracker · 11/12/2011 19:56

I was on the first version of New Deal. It was quite intelligent, imo. As you started earning more, your benefits were reduced on a sliding scale. It meant that, no matter what welfare you received or how well/badly your work went, you'd always be better off if you earned as well as claiming.

All these flat rates and draconian thresholds will push people to try and cheat, won't they? Why can't they do a sliding-rewards thing again?

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan · 11/12/2011 19:57

garlic i think in reality they don't want people to work, not everyone can work, there isn't enough work so if you can acclimatise some to living in abject poverty but not paying out as much as you used to when you acknowledged they were ill or unable to find work etc you make your saving and you don't have to invest in jobs.

am i getting way too cynical?

CardyMow · 11/12/2011 19:58

The earnings disregard isn't as high as you think, either - basically, this is where it gets complex...

There are different rates of earnings disregard based on the make-up of your family. I'll post those later...

And they allow £520 PER YEAR disregard for the first child, £260 PER YEAR for the second child, £260 PER YEAR for the third child, and NOTHING for the fourth and subsequent children. (That's just some of the earnings isregard info...)

And UC is meant to be easier to work out...Confused Hmm

garlicnutcracker · 11/12/2011 20:00

Santa, you see why I raised that question now ...

I get that families with expensive needs (disablement, caring) get higher benefits. More importantly, these families get benefits ONT TOP OF THEIR PAY if they have those needs and have full-time jobs. This is never highlighted in welfare discussions: the benefit system exists to bridge the gap between costs and means; it benefits everyone who has EITHER greater need OR low wages. It's not all about work-dodging, by a long chalk.

garlicnutcracker · 11/12/2011 20:01

Not too cynical at all, Santa :(

There will be even fewer jobs when employers can get their staff paid by the State.

Next year.

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan · 11/12/2011 20:04

i do.

i want to understand the disregard levels - so how much are you allowed to earn before you start losing UC and to understand if you're allowed to earn that in 3 hrs a week or you have to work 20hrs a week.

i'm trained in a high paid (relative to NMW) profession and maybe if i absolutely had to and all meds/support etc was in place i could work a half day a week say and earn 2.5kpa for doing it. the way systems tend to be though doing those hours would mean losing disability benefits and those hours being so short would mean not qualifying for working benefits. it's a shame really because there must be disabled lawyers, teachers, acupuncturists etc who could perhaps face half a day a week but have the hands tied so they can't.

CardyMow · 11/12/2011 20:04

Earnings disregard and the benefit cap
f) Some households will have an increased earnings disregard to reflect their different needs. Carers, though, are not a specified group entitled to an increased disregard. However, it is anticipated that the majority of carers will benefit from an income disregard because of other family circumstances, including a maximum disregard* of £7000 if they are living in a household with a disabled partner.
g) Exemption from the benefit cap will be extended to households which include a member who is in receipt of Personal Independence Payment which will replace DLA for individuals of working age (aged 16- 64) from April 2013. Some households will be exempt from the benefit cap, such as those in receipt of DLA. If, for instance, a carer?s partner is in receipt of DLA, the household will be exempt from the cap. Being a carer will not in itself provide exemption from the benefit cap.

*(yet again, my own notes). The MAXIMUM disregard is reduced if you are claiming ANY housing costs as part of your UC. So while the MAXIMUM annual disregard if there is a disabled person in your household (and they only count ONE, even if there are 3/4 people with disabilities in your household) might be £7000 - IF you claim housing costs as part of your UC, your earnings disregard will be reduced by 1.5 times the housing costs you claim for.

I have NO IDEA why they are reducing it by 1.5 times your housing costs - surely pound-for-pound of your housing costs at least - so if you want a roof over your head and you have 1 or more people with disabilities in your household, you are, frankly, FUCKED.

And, just remember - the ONLY people who qualify for no conditionality are those caring for the MOST SEVERELY disabled.

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan · 11/12/2011 20:06

basically lazy people with no dependents who don't mind being poor will kind of be ok doing a part mw job and getting topped up by UC whilst single parents and disabled people are forced into slavery?

this isn't all that well thought out even in terms of evil mastermindery.

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan · 11/12/2011 20:08

basically if i don't get crossed over onto esa i'm fucked then. i don't get a carer's allowance or reprieve because i'm the disabled one but if they don't acknowledge my disability then??? crikey.

how can they bring all this in so quickly? surely this breaks so many laws?

SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan · 11/12/2011 20:10

is this on top of your tax free allowance? because if not aren't they just eating that?

sorry i'm probably lost. but 7k sounds suspiciously like the tax free bit and i'm wondering how they connect.

sorry will sit on my hands for a bit. and think i better go swallow half a bottle of kalms, with a valium and a gallon of cammomile tea.

RudolphthePinkNosedReindeer · 11/12/2011 20:25

Santa I take it you are waiting to be migrated from IB? You could try for the danger to self or others condition. BTW when I have been at my lowest, I have been found in tears in Morrisons cos I couldn't decide which smoked haddock to get, and was dreading having to choose peas from among all the variants.

Hunty do people still get carer's allowance for caring for people getting AA and not getting premium [am v out of date]? If so, what happens when the changes come in? Asking for the sake of completeness, not personal need.

RatherBeOnTheMulledWine · 11/12/2011 20:25

DH has linked to his Google+ which will reach over 2000, so hopefully more people will find the FB/blog. That is sort of by the way.

Have been reading everything posted.What on earth is happening to us and to our welfare system? Totally crap.

And Peachy - I'm lost for words at your relative's heartbreaking comment. Bloody hell Sad

Going to carry on reading
X

garlicnutcracker · 11/12/2011 20:33

Grin this isn't all that well thought out even in terms of evil mastermindery Grin

I don't see it as a long-term plan; it's just plastering.

I have to write this out or it'll keep up for another sleepless night :(
It's off the top of my head. Historians will correct me.

In uncertain times for Germany, when the nation was feeling very anxious about their unstable economy and threats from neighbouring powers, one Adolf Hitler gained popularity on a well-being platform. Preaching a combination of national austerity and morale-boosting, he promoted impressive self-improvement brigades for children, adult education programs, health & fitness regimes, new parks and the idealised image of German life that struck the hearts of miserable citizens.

Despite his vote-pulling popularity, his numbers never added up. Because of this he couldn't reel in the weight of support he needed for victory, but managed to retain a place in a hung election. The vote was so uncertain it went to a second poll, which gave much the same result. The old prime minister - who was popular, but whose party was weakened by internal bickering - kept his post but now had to make major decisions (like changes in law) in collaboration with Hitler and the leader of the other opposition party.

The three parties could never agree. Hitler put forward an electoral reform proposal, which he knew would never be agreed, but the German constitution required that it be considered. When the other leaders turned up for the meeting, they were met by a rank of armed soldiers with guns, working for Hitler. He then insisted - with a gun literally at their heads - the other leaders sign his proposal. This proposal made his party the leaders and basically outlawed elections (he had this ratified, later, by lawyers working for him.)

The story of the armed bullies was never leaked. People who might risk shooting their mouths off were killed. Publicly, the three parties had agreed to adopt Hitler's policies - and, since money was now channelled into his wellbeing program without thought for future costs, it was a very popular move.

When the money started to run out, State campaigns against 'grasping parasites' began. Taxpayers were urged to dob in their neighbours for harbouring 'greedy' jews, 'shifty' gypsies and expensive 'cripples'. As communities were turned against one another, accusing anybody and everybody of stealing their money, it became evident that all the kids and people in the health/moral programmes had been learning the classic (Aryan) German was a different, superior species to the rest. As such, they felt no worse about condemning their shopkeepers, nurses, neighbours and secretaries to an unknown fate.

That's how the ghettoes began. Economic 'parasites' were forced to go live in restricted areas, which were overcrowded and much like a more picturesque version of today's Palestine. Incoming trade was not allowed. Over time, the guards on these ghettoes were given stricter rules and harsher punishments. In some of them, 75% of the residents had been shot by the time the deportations to concentration camps began.

Every student of politics learns how to acquire absolute power (it's identical to the mechanics of abuse, on a large scale.) This is supposedly taught as a warning but ... If a warning sounds and nobody listens, what then?

garlicnutcracker · 11/12/2011 20:33

Oh, HURRAH, Rather!

Well done that DH Grin Thank you. x

AnnieLobeseder · 11/12/2011 20:42

I need to catch up on this new thread, but just wanted to report that I've written 20 letters to LibDem peers this evening about ELA, as requested in the Benefit Scrounger blog. I have Done Something. It felt good.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie · 11/12/2011 20:48

well done, annie

garlic, your thoughts are very chilling in view of the documented uprise in extreme right wing enclaves in Germany, so-called no-go areas where anyone of non-white, non-perfect status is shunned

OP posts:
CardyMow · 11/12/2011 20:51

There ISN'T a set amount of hours - conditionality is based on EARNINGS. Minimum for a Lone parent is £121.60 - 20hrs @ NMW. I'll post what I can, and try to make it understandable - but it's going to take me a while!!

CardyMow · 11/12/2011 20:52

Santa - no, single people with no dependants will have a HIGHER conditionality level - their level is £212 a week that they have to earn...or the equivalent of 35 hrs @ NMW.

dawntigga · 11/12/2011 20:53

Place marking as far too tired to read this now and I really don't want to raise my blood pressure tonight.

EasilyFrothedTiggaxx

garlicnutcracker · 11/12/2011 20:56

Yep. The main difference between then and now is the wider range, and speed, of communication. Even if "They" were to restrict access, there'd be ways around it because we are now used to sharing ideas - as on Mumsnet, for example.

It's why I care so much about getting the word out. National media are no longer the only source of info, thank goodness, so it's become harder to silence the talk. Personally, I feel it's urgent to reach as many people as possible, fast.

I prolly ought to add that I'm not drawing a direct parallel between Shiny Dave and A. Hitler. Just pointing out the techniques that dictators have always used to gain support, then coerce it Hmm

AnyFuckerForAMincePie · 11/12/2011 20:56

come back soon, tigga x

OP posts:
CardyMow · 11/12/2011 20:58

So a single person with no dependants won't get away with working PT, they will have to work 35 hrs MIN or face the whole - get higher wages in your current job/get more HOURS in your current job/get a second job/get a higher paying job. Or we'll stop your UC.

CardyMow · 11/12/2011 21:11

Right - I may pop in and out, but I'm going to be up to my neck in numbers for a while. I will use the costs of After-school club, breakfast club and Nursery in my area, and rent too. Actually, if I can face it - I might do a comparison between London, SE, and somewhere like Newcastle - Newcastle's a cheap-ish town to live in, isn't it?

Should I do the figures MONTHLY as UC is paid monthly?